DUI

Moderator: Jim DeVito

Charyn Compeau
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:11 pm

Postby Charyn Compeau » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:08 am

I know you didnt, Bryan, and I didnt mean to imply that you did.

My concern is that the patron will not feel as responsible for his actions if he knows that the bartender is responsible for his actions as well.

Even if he is thrown in jail, fined, etc. - I can imagine a 'blaming' of the bartenders/owners for not being responsible owners. From there, I can imagine lawyers trying to mitigate sentences, make deals, etc. I worry about the host of civil lawsuits that could ensue once there is a legal responsibility assigned to the bar owner.

For example -

Johnny goes to the bar and gets lit. He leaves and crashes his uninsured car into Jane's porch.

Johnny gets arrested, charged and convicted. The bar owners is cited and fined. Johnny can pay his fines so he his to serve time and loses a week worth of work.

Jane's homeowners insurance cannot sue Johnny's insurance, nor Johnny (he has no money), but her insurance sees that the bar owner has a legal responsibility for Johnny's state of inebriation so they sue the bar owner to fix the porch. In the meanwhile, Johnny sues the bar owners for feeding him too many drinks, claiming that if the bar hadnt gotten him drunk he wouldnt have lost a week's worth of work.

How is this scenario avoided?


Donald Farris
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Lakewood and points beyond
Contact:

Postby Donald Farris » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:28 am

Hi,
So, can bikers in Lakewood now be charged with DUI and DWD just like the cars and trucks they share the road with?


Mankind must put an end to war or
war will put an end to mankind.
--John F. Kennedy

Stability and peace in our land will not come from the barrel of a gun, because peace without justice is an impossibility.
--Desmond Tutu
Jeff Endress
Posts: 858
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
Location: Lakewood

Postby Jeff Endress » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:34 am

Hi,
So, can bikers in Lakewood now be charged with DUI and DWD just like the cars and trucks they share the road with?


They always could.....Bikes, mopeds, riding lawn mowers....they're all covered under the Ohio Revised Code.

Jeff


To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
Shawn Juris

Postby Shawn Juris » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:05 am

While it's a great discussion isn't the desire to hold bar owners liable (which to me means they would be found negligent and either their liquor liability would pay out or the owner would be held individually responsible for the loss), a matter for the state legal system. I'd be very interested to hear if Ohio has had a single payout from a liquor liability lawsuit, I have yet to find a situation where a settlement was paid and negligence was proven. I would not want to advise a bar owner against protecting themselves since it will happen someday and no one wants to be the example. In the case of the Giants stadium, one it's another state as was mentioned, two these are some much deeper pockets than local establishments. This doesn't excuse the local watering hole but I would think it would have an impact on how the lawsuit is approached and the likelihood of recieving a settlement check.
With just hours remaining, it would be interesting to hear what the candidates can do locally.


Jeff Endress
Posts: 858
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
Location: Lakewood

Postby Jeff Endress » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:39 am

Shawn

Any liquor permit holder that knowingly serves an intoxicated patron can be held responsible for damages that the patron causes. It's typically referred to as "Dramshop Liability". There are tons of cases where the permit holder (or his insurer) has been called upon to pay damages in civil suits for serving an intoxicated customer. I'm not aware of any criminal convictions.....

Jeff


To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
Shawn Juris

Postby Shawn Juris » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:58 am

Jeff,
I was hoping that you would jump in on this one. This is more your field than mine. While I've always advised bar owners to purchase liquor liability protection, I have been told (by some less than reliable sources) that there has yet to be a successful lawsuit in the state of Ohio. Now, this may be to mean that the case was defended which would again require the policy to be in place to have the insurance company provide representation. I've attempted to search out more details on this topic, do you have a link to a site that shows settlements? The most common ones that I've found have been portfolios of law firms which list their prior cases.
This has been a topic that has left me feeling that there may be some misnomers and assumptions about who pays what and what happens one the lawsuit is over.


Jeff Endress
Posts: 858
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
Location: Lakewood

Postby Jeff Endress » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:27 am

The matter is controlled by ORC chap 4399.

The most pertinent part is Sec. 4399.18, in part:


A person has a cause of action against a permit holder or an employee of a permit holder for personal injury, death, or property damage caused by the negligent actions of an intoxicated person occurring off the premises or away from a parking lot under the permit holder’s control only when both of the following can be shown by a preponderance of the evidence:

(A) The permit holder or an employee of the permit holder knowingly sold an intoxicating beverage to at least one of the following:

(1) A noticeably intoxicated person in violation of division (B) of section 4301.22 of the Revised Code;

(2) A person in violation of section 4301.69 of the Revised Code.

(B) The person’s intoxication proximately caused the personal injury, death, or property damage.


Not sure where the stats are.....But referencing the statute through Westlaw yeilds a plethora of cases. Since I've represented at least four individuals who recovered from the permit holder, I can positively opine that there incidences of recovery against permit holders.

Jeff


To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
Brian W Keske
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:55 pm
Location: Lakewood

Postby Brian W Keske » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:19 pm

Just to add to this discussion. Judge Carrol is a very tough Judge when it comes to these crimes. In fact, I believe one of the reasons we have so many DUI arrests in Lakewood is the police departments tough stand on the issue.

In addition, Lakewood is very lucky to have a variety of treatment facilities in and around the city, as well as their fair share of 'self help meetings'.

As a person who has been around this issue, no law or fine will stop an alcoholic from drinking. That is a decision they must make when they wake up to the damage they are doing to themselves, their loved ones, and society as a whole.

The problem does not exist for a lack of help available. Far from it.


Charyn Compeau
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:11 pm

Postby Charyn Compeau » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:29 am

Thanks Shawn and Jeff for providing additional detail about the process. I forgot about the insurance aspect. From spending some time working with insurance companies I would believe that the business owner's insurance would try to recoup as much of their loss as possible from the offending party to the extent permissible by law. Which, in the end is what I would hope for.

Thanks again all.


Charyn


Phil Florian
Posts: 538
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:24 pm

Postby Phil Florian » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:54 pm

I think restaurant owners should be held liable for my overeating. If I over eat, get heavier (and that is already a problem) and have a heart attack in my car that causes me to kill someone, then they should be held accountable. Right?

What is "drunk beyond recognition" and "had enough to impair driving" is a wavey line that is hard to know when one has crossed. How can bar owners be responsible for all the conditions that could contribute to drunk driving? Someone on a certain medicine might be significantly impaired after a half a glass? Should a bartender know this? Can a bartender keep track of every patron who doesn't sit at the bar? Can a bartender know how many drinks a person had before or might have after the bar?

People who have the most responsibility starts with the individual, who should know their limit. The next would be the people with him or her who can see how far things have gone. Obviously, if a bartender sees someone staggering out with keys in hand bragging about driving, yes, do something. But most people "look" normal when they might be unable to keep a car on the road.

A bartender is no more responsible for someone drinking to an unsafe limit than a waiter for someone eating too much. Or a store clerk when you are putting more on your credit card than you can safely pay off every month. Are they?


Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Postby Stephen Eisel » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:09 pm

Phil Florian wrote:I think restaurant owners should be held liable for my overeating. If I over eat, get heavier (and that is already a problem) and have a heart attack in my car that causes me to kill someone, then they should be held accountable. Right?

What is "drunk beyond recognition" and "had enough to impair driving" is a wavey line that is hard to know when one has crossed. How can bar owners be responsible for all the conditions that could contribute to drunk driving? Someone on a certain medicine might be significantly impaired after a half a glass? Should a bartender know this? Can a bartender keep track of every patron who doesn't sit at the bar? Can a bartender know how many drinks a person had before or might have after the bar?

People who have the most responsibility starts with the individual, who should know their limit. The next would be the people with him or her who can see how far things have gone. Obviously, if a bartender sees someone staggering out with keys in hand bragging about driving, yes, do something. But most people "look" normal when they might be unable to keep a car on the road.

A bartender is no more responsible for someone drinking to an unsafe limit than a waiter for someone eating too much. Or a store clerk when you are putting more on your credit card than you can safely pay off every month. Are they?
:shock: I agree...


Shawn Juris

Postby Shawn Juris » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:15 pm

Phil
You make some good points but since alcohol is in essence a legalized drug and the sale and eventual consumption can lead to a public safety issue which goes beyond the "victimless crimes" of credit trouble or weight issues, there are permits, legal obligation, exposures and training that should be in place for bars that go beyond other retail operations. There is a duty for any bartender to use their best judgement and avoid overserving and intoxicated individual. Sure there are ways around it but if the bartender is found negligent then a settlement should be expected.
Jeff, jump into clarify this if my legalese is off.


Ivor Karabatkovic
Posts: 845
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:45 am
Contact:

Postby Ivor Karabatkovic » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:16 pm

Phil,

People who have the most responsibility starts with the individual, who should know their limit. The next would be the people with him or her who can see how far things have gone. Obviously, if a bartender sees someone staggering out with keys in hand bragging about driving, yes, do something. But most people "look" normal when they might be unable to keep a car on the road.


I agree with you. But:

I can spot a drunk when I see one because I took a class in it. The only class a bartender takes is one to make sure he doesn't mix something so potent that it causes a chemical reaction and burns someone.

The last thing you can expect someone to do is point the finger at themselves when millions of dollars in a lawsuit or life in jail is at stake.

I know that sports arenas are held responsible and so are the vendors. They have to check ID's vigorously and they have to limit sales to two drinks per transaction.

What if the person came into the bar drunk already like in the NY Giants case.

Half of the Browns fans are already hammered by the beginning of the game because they've been tailgating for more than 4 hours in advance.

All I'm saying is that part of my training is a class on how to spot drunks and deal with them. I work very close with CPD and when it comes to drunks we don't take it lightly at all. My favorite part of the job is making drunks sit in the jail underneath Jacobs Field for the rest of the night.



Return to “2007 Lakewood Mayoral Election”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests