Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

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cmager
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby cmager » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Kate McCarthy wrote:I took a look at the all school district ratings in Cuyahoga County. The average percentage of disadvantaged children by grade are as follows: A - 8.6%, B - 16.3%, C - 37.7% (Lakewood has 41.5%), D - 72.2%, F - 98.3%. Poverty is not the only factor, but is a huge driver of how well children do in school. The other C districts in Cuyahoga are Brooklyn, North Olmsted, Berea, Shaker, and Fairview, with only Brooklyn having a higher percentage of economically disadvantaged students.

Thank you for providing these numbers. These numbers should underpin this entire conversation.


Kate McCarthy
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Kate McCarthy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:17 pm

cmager wrote:
Kate McCarthy wrote:I took a look at the all school district ratings in Cuyahoga County. The average percentage of disadvantaged children by grade are as follows: A - 8.6%, B - 16.3%, C - 37.7% (Lakewood has 41.5%), D - 72.2%, F - 98.3%. Poverty is not the only factor, but is a huge driver of how well children do in school. The other C districts in Cuyahoga are Brooklyn, North Olmsted, Berea, Shaker, and Fairview, with only Brooklyn having a higher percentage of economically disadvantaged students.

Thank you for providing these numbers. These numbers should underpin this entire conversation.

I agree. There is also a map being circulated on Facebook that visually tells this story...low poverty, high ratings. But I would be remiss to leave it there. Lakewood City Schools offer intangibles that are not easily measured. Dr. G, a wonderful teacher both our daughters were lucky to have, does a great job explaining that here:
http://lakewoodobserver.com/read/2016/08/02/lakewood-high-schoolan-opportunity-rich-environment.


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Kate McCarthy wrote:
cmager wrote:
Kate McCarthy wrote:I took a look at the all school district ratings in Cuyahoga County. The average percentage of disadvantaged children by grade are as follows: A - 8.6%, B - 16.3%, C - 37.7% (Lakewood has 41.5%), D - 72.2%, F - 98.3%. Poverty is not the only factor, but is a huge driver of how well children do in school. The other C districts in Cuyahoga are Brooklyn, North Olmsted, Berea, Shaker, and Fairview, with only Brooklyn having a higher percentage of economically disadvantaged students.

Thank you for providing these numbers. These numbers should underpin this entire conversation.

I agree. There is also a map being circulated on Facebook that visually tells this story...low poverty, high ratings. But I would be remiss to leave it there. Lakewood City Schools offer intangibles that are not easily measured. Dr. G, a wonderful teacher both our daughters were lucky to have, does a great job explaining that here:
http://lakewoodobserver.com/read/2016/08/02/lakewood-high-schoolan-opportunity-rich-environment.


I like and respect Dr. G who is a really great teacher but h I disagree with several factual premises of his article. Firstly, Lakewood is no more diverse and no more unique than many of the other the communities referenced above. When Dr. G. and I graduated from LHS in 1977 it was not considered diverse as it is now and we did not lack the intangible benefits he speaks of. Dare I say that diversity can be overrated a bit when speaking of performance. Dare I also say as a Lakewoodite that any teacher in Berea, Brooklyn, North Olmsted etc. could make the same claims as Dr. G. Lakewood is simply not that “special”.
Secondly, the state has not simply given an overall objective grade based upon test scores —there are several categories in the ratings system and each means something.
Thirdly, while it is true that a lot of C students excel in life, it does not mean grades mean nothing—otherwise Dr. G. Would not be as serious about grading students papers.
Finally, raw statistics can be helpful, but using diversity and poverty as statistical excuses for school performance is not persuasive or ....else we can conclude that Beebe & Co are just wasting our money—-which for other reasons I say they have.


David Anderson has no legitimate answers
Gary Rice
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:15 pm

OK, my turn here. :D

So many people post in chatrooms for reasons that reflect their own personal experience, and in that regard this evening, I am no different.

My personal experiences with our Lakewood's schools are so much more than considerable. They began in the second grade and continued through graduation, student teaching, long and short term substitute teaching, special education tutoring, and also continued long after my retirement as a classroom teacher in another district, by my assisting our schools as a classroom volunteer in recent years.

Having taught successfully for more than thirty years in several public and private schools, I am in a unique and excellent position to compare Lakewood Schools with other educational institutions, both public and private. The education I received in the Lakewood Schools was second to none, and that education assisted my graduating with cum laude honors from a university, despite coping with multiple handicapping conditions of my own. The support and inclusive attention that our schools have afforded students who deal daily with differences or educational exceptionalities, including people like me, has been a long-term success story.

There are always going to be students who do well on their own. Many of these students are also supported demographically by families with resources. For other students to be able to succeed while facing familial, financial, linguistic, or physical challenges, they need the exceptional support that fine schools like Lakewood's are providing so very well.

See, normally, I prefer not to bang my own drum, but it's not just my own drum here that is resonating, but also, the drums of the school district that helped me to become what I became, and who I am today. :D


Long live the Lakewood Ranger Drum Line :D

You say that you don't play the drums?
We don't care, that's cool.
We just want you all to know,
That Ranger Drummers RULE!

But I digress here... :wink:


Significant point below:

:!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

There are many aspects to the recent evaluation that are reflected in the school district's overall grade. The ones I would refer you to are the value added scores that are exceptionally high, because "value added" equates to real and measurable progress made during a school year with populations that really need to experience success. Those good value added scores indicate that real education is happening when and where it counts. Now some might point out that the value added score for advanced placement was not as high, but remember too that this particular measurement BEGINS high, so incremental gains there going from excellent to even more excellent are almost understandable, and of course, there is always room for improvement. :D


Time and again, I have witnessed the demonstrable excellence that would be fully evident for anyone taking the time to visit Lakewood's public schools, and personally see the successes happening there every single day.


Back to the banjo... :D


Bill Call
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Bill Call » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:09 am

Brian Essi wrote:Finally, raw statistics can be helpful, but using diversity and poverty as statistical excuses for school performance is not persuasive or ....else we can conclude that Beebe & Co are just wasting our money—-which for other reasons I say they have.



If diversity is our strength then why is it used as an excuse for failure?

Linda Beebe has been excusing poor performance for a long time. She should have retired a long time ago.

I expect that the educational bureaucracy will circle the wagons and make more excuses.

There is a big debate in the educational bureaucracy about the evils of "meritocracy". It seems that excellence is racist, that a demanding curriculum excludes the less fortunate, that grades and test scores mean nothing and that the real success of a school is how good the bureaucracy "feels" about the system.

Low test scores are not the result of poverty, or the result of racism or "exclusion". Poor test results are the result of poorly motivated students.

New York City has found a solution for poor test scores and student performance. It seems Asian immigrant children study hard and show up everyday. The result is that those children are "over represented" in the best schools. The solution according to the Mayor of New York is to award places in the best schools by lottery to achieve a proper balance. It's easy to see the end game.

First you limit the number of hard working dedicated students to make room for students who are less dedicated and less hard working.

When those students fail to keep up you blame the teachers and the curriculum.

Then you purge the schools of hard working dedicated teachers and make the curriculum less demanding.

Then when the school test results suffer and the best performing schools became the same as the worse performing schools you demand more money.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/diver ... 15057.html


Gary Rice
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 am

Unlike some other school discussions that I've participated in, at least this one has been relatively civil. :D

People are not yelling at each other, or banging their political agenda drums overmuch. :roll:

Well, OK, so I do play the drums. Nuff said there. :D


Seriously, here's my point:


As a professional educator, I could create an easy classroom test that all of my students would pass with shining colors. On the other hand, I could also create a too-difficult test where every student would fail. The art of test making is always to create a test that covers what is taught fairly, and is at least within the capability of every engaged student to pass.


Once that is done however, everything from demographic concerns, to individual IQ abilities, to developmental readiness, to whether a student had a good sleep last night, could speak English, or had to babysit baby brother while the parents went out and partied....All of this also comes into play.


Does anyone seriously doubt here that a huge part of America's problems with education falls into the essence of the last paragraph?


Yet that point made, another question that looms large is whether indeed we are expecting more than we should, by asking every student to pass through the same artificially created so-called "high standards" that have created a nation of neurotic test takers?

Remember too, that those "high standards" were NOT created locally, but by academic "experts" and government leaders who purport to know far better that our local educators and parents what children MUST know at a certain point in their lives.

Did we all learn to speak at the same point in our lives? Did we all learn to tie our shoes at the same point in our lives?

Could we all spell "antidisestablishmentarianism" at the same moment in our lives? Of course not. This is what makes the very notion of high standards rather political, AND subjective. :roll:

Quite frankly, I am convinced that pushing a child academically beyond what they can reasonably be expected to achieve at a given point in their lives can be nothing less than an insidious form of child abuse. That feeling of inferiority, rejection, and not fitting in then creates a breeding ground for the kind of societal anarchy that we are currently witnessing so often these days.


Children WILL find "success". One way or another...In school, or out...except it might not be the kind of success that society approves of... :roll:

If, on the other hand, a school district like Lakewood's makes every effort to reach every student, there is a much better chance that more young people will feel that each of them can, in their own way, become a REAL success in life.


God knows how I might have turned out without that kind of helping hand.


The real key to all of this is to continue to allow for reasonable high expectations, while at the same time, providing the flexibility and tools to assist those students who start to fall by the wayside. This is something that the Lakewood Schools do very well, and while it may cost them a few points in the artificial ratings game, they are indeed trying to do the right thing for all of their students, rather than simply serving the top third of the academic bell curve.


Back to the banjo... :D


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:41 am

Gary Rice wrote:
Remember too, that those "high standards" were NOT created locally, but by academic "experts" and government leaders who purport to know far better that our local educators and parents what children MUST know at a certain point in their lives.





Back to the banjo... :D


Mr. Rice,

The arrogant notion that the "local" Lakewoodites have more "expertise" than others in evaluating the effectiveness of our schools is the same kind of thinking that explains why we don't have a hospital and 1200 tax paying employees any more.

What is common among those resisting placing some (but not absolute) importance on the state's grading of Lakewood Schools are narratives, generalities and excuses that don't actually address what the state has done. The idea that no system of evaluating Lakewood Schools in relation to its "competitors" is valid is simply "denial" of core problems in the Lakewood School System.

INDICATORS MET GRADE F
PREPARED FOR SUCCESS COMPONENT D

These two measures should be very concerning grades for those who tout Lakewood as "great place to raise families". There should be outcry and questioning of these grades, not rationalization that the grades are invalid or irrelevant or that Lakewood is somehow a "special case".


David Anderson has no legitimate answers
Gary Rice
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Location: Lakewood

Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:47 pm

Good Afternoon Mr. Essi,

I see we meet again. :wink:

Say you have some medical problem. Would it be considered arrogance to go to your doctor who is treating you, and have him be unable to prescribe a medicine or treatment based on his personal relationship with you, because he has to follow some national guideline that in no way relates to you personally?

Same thing with teachers all across the country who know their students well. They are being forced by outside forces to teach content over mastery. They are being forced to cattle-chute their students virtually mindlessly to a common goal, and "Oh well" to the kids who can't keep up. :roll: Lakewood's efforts to help ALL students are indeed well-documented and appreciated. :D


And Brian, THAT speaks directly to the two problem issues that you just pointed out. Lakewood schools are struggling mightily to cope with this "Everyone must be on the same page-or else" type of thinking that was concocted somewhere by someone who likely has spent more time in an ivory tower than in a real school classroom.


The medical scenario that I pointed out earlier seems to be happening more and more nowadays too, as doctor/patient decisions are oftentimes now being framed by what insurance companies will pay for.

Whether it's a doctor, a pharmacist, or a teacher, or for that matter, an attorney :D I most value the opinion of the professional who is right in front of me and who knows me, rather that what some far off committee thinks might be best for me.

Far from arrogance, that's just plain common sense. :D


And as for being prepared for success? Well, in order to measure success (or anything else for that matter) you have to have some kind of criterion-based reference standard to go by, and when I see a measurable and accountable rubric for what the word "success" means, I'll pay more attention to that one. :roll:


Back to the classroom, AND the banjo. :D


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:49 pm

Gary Rice wrote:
And as for being prepared for success? Well, in order to measure success (or anything else for that matter) you have to have some kind of criterion-based reference standard to go by, and when I see a measurable and accountable rubric for what the word "success" means, I'll pay more attention to that one.




I see. If we conclude there is no objective standard, then we can avoid any accountability---so, Lakewood Schools are whatever we say they are?

So, we should all be pleased with increased tax as long as we say "Lakewood City Schools are Excellent!" "This is Good News!" Right?


David Anderson has no legitimate answers
Gary Rice
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Location: Lakewood

Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:16 pm

Brian my friend,

As usual, you have nailed the essense of this whole school debate question.

You know your law, I am certain, just as I know my field of education, and I believe we both have a mutual respect for each other that goes way beyond parliamentary debating principles. :D


For many years now, experts and yes, polemicists, (those having an agenda, whether right OR left wing) have tried to find some sort of educational "objective standards" to quantify everything from classroom "success" to teacher evaluations.


In my opinion, they have not been able to do so very well here in our country, because no two people are alike, or experience success in the same measurable way. Sure, leaders CAN approach measurement, particularly in countries that value lock-step conformity more than we do, but in a pluralistic society, academic freedom rules. :D


Are Lakewood Schools "excellent"? By my own logic, I'll have to concede that to being an opinion, and not a rubric-quantifiable fact. At the same time, neither can "success" be objectively quantifiable, so there it is. That's the problem with us teachers. We demand logic and proof, supplied through empirical evidence and reason. Call it the scientific method if you will, or something worse, if you must, but if you want to pursue truth with a capital "T", you must support your argument with something besides emotion or feelings.


In your courtroom, I suppose you could persuade. In my classroom however, you needed to prove, but I digress here. :wink:


This point made then, you would think that I would be supportive of testing, and I am, IF.... IT IS DIAGNOSTIC/PRESCRIPTIVE and not culturally biased, skewed against certain populations, punitive in nature, or politically motivated with loaded questions.

I believe that there is a great deal of politics trying to get into the classrooms. I'm certain that has always has been the case too. That's one reason that tenure was established for educators in our country; to protect them from arbitrary dismissal while teaching their students the importance of having an open mind and supporting a student's free inquiry into the academics.


Testing must be FAIR, but what if we cannot establish a rubric for what FAIR means? That's a problem too. :roll:


There are always legitimate discussions about tax and money issues, but again, all the facts need to be in play in order for voters to make an informed decision. In recent years, unfunded or under-funded mandates have been piled upon our public schools, taking essential dollars out of the public classrooms of our nation. The costs relating to mandated testing alone are staggering. Private and Charter schools continually argue (and often with great success) for a larger piece of the Public Education pie, so there is that going on too.

However one may feel about the relative validity to their arguments, the fact remains that public schools are the schools that by far, most Americans attend. They often struggle with resources because, rather than being selective, our public schools must serve everyone, whether or not sufficient funds have been allocated.

And again this is my opinion here, but in Lakewood, they do so WITH EXCELLENCE. :D

Back to the banjo... :D


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:41 pm

Brian Essi wrote:
Gary Rice wrote:
And as for being prepared for success? Well, in order to measure success (or anything else for that matter) you have to have some kind of criterion-based reference standard to go by, and when I see a measurable and accountable rubric for what the word "success" means, I'll pay more attention to that one.




I see. If we conclude there is no objective standard, then we can avoid any accountability---so, Lakewood Schools are whatever we say they are?

So, we should all be pleased with increased tax as long as we say "Lakewood City Schools are Excellent!" "This is Good News!" Right?


The State of Ohio Department of Education has a "criterion-based reference standard"---I'm sure we could critique it, but it is the current standard for "Prepared for Success"

Lakewood is getting a D in this area.

Wouldn't you agree that by this standard and grade, Lakewood Schools are not a "success" in that area?

Scan 1.jpeg
Scan 1.jpeg (112.46 KiB) Viewed 4020 times


http://education.ohio.gov/getattachment ... d.pdf.aspx


David Anderson has no legitimate answers
Gary Rice
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Location: Lakewood

Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:20 pm

Brian,

As I've often said, a rubric needs to be fair, measurable, and objectively accountable.

Your own words:

"I'm sure we could critique it" states the problem in a nutshell. This sort of thing remains a work in process.

The Department's system of potential success measurement demonstrates an attempt to go beyond student measurement by grades, tests, and attendance, and it marks a commendable effort to measure arguably intangible student POTENTIAL FOR ACHIEVING SUCCESS (and NOT SUCCESS ITSELF!) in a school district, so your argument against my own success argument is pretty much a case of apples and oranges, and I cannot therefore concede your point. :D

I can, however, understand your position. On the other hand, I would suspect that these sorts of things will continue to evolve over the next few years, as have many other proposed and established so-called "standards" over the years.

But to say that all of this is an exact science? I would opine that the jury is still out with that one. I'm sure that even the State of Ohio would freely admit that evaluations of students and school districts will continue to be a work in progress.


I could carry this discussion even farther by asking what the word "potential" means, as I'm sure you may anticipate. :lol:


Perhaps we simply have a "potentially" philosophical disagreement. :lol:

Back to the banjo... :D


Dan Alaimo
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Dan Alaimo » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:09 pm

Gary, Brian,
This is a really good discussion. Carry on, friends.
Dan


“Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill (Quote later appropriated by Rahm Emanuel)
Brian Essi
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Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 11:46 am

Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:03 am

Gary Rice wrote:
The Department's system of potential success measurement demonstrates an attempt to go beyond student measurement by grades, tests, and attendance, and it marks a commendable effort to measure arguably intangible student POTENTIAL FOR ACHIEVING SUCCESS (and NOT SUCCESS ITSELF!) in a school district, so your argument against my own success argument is pretty much a case of apples and oranges, and I cannot therefore concede your point. :D





Mr. Rice,

You seem to continue to duck, bob and weave on a simple issue on even just one of the 14 measures adopted by the State Dept of Ed.

Lakewood is a subdivision of the state and is subject to its laws and rules.

Much like students in your class subject to your authority.

I doubt that many of your students would have learned much and improved their education and lives in your classroom of rules if they rejected and completely ignored your grading system and your authority (which in many instances includes somewhat subjective measures and subjectively administered authority) claiming it just didn't have any relevance to their performance in school. And if one student went her parents with a D and protested that Mr. Rice didn't have a "fair" system, I doubt that her parents on the whole would wave a dismissive hand and do nothing to inquire as to how the student was really doing and the root cause for the D. In my example, that student is the Lakewood Schools, you are the State Dept of Ed and the parents are the residents of Lakewood. What we seem to have in Lakewood are a lot of residents willing to accept a D or C from a community that claims to pride itself on claims of being far above average (and far above below average i.e. a D)

So, can I safely conclude (using just the statistical sample of the discussion above) that the residents of Lakewood think that a D is acceptable and there is no need for any accountability? If so, then may I suggest that Lakewoodites abandon the phony claims that Lakewood City Schools are somehow "better" than their nearby neighborhood school systems.

To have change, there must be accountability,
To have accountability, you must have good leadership.

Are Beebe, Einhouse and Shaugnessy capable of even understanding the State's assessment of Lakewood City Schools and doing anything to address their own longstanding failures?

What is their "plan" to address the inadequacies?

As Mr. Call points out, more money with not achieve a thing---the money put into the new "bricks and mortar" may have "bought" a wave of new home buyers to Lakewood.

However, Lakewood needs new and true leaders on its School Board to keep home buyers here and sustain a population that is "Prepared for Success" and will stay here.


David Anderson has no legitimate answers
Gary Rice
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Location: Lakewood

Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:09 am

Good Morning again, Brian:

First for the benefit of anyone unaware:

The word "SEEMS" is, in English grammar, considered to be a weasel word, allowing the writer to disclaim what is written or claimed. Weasel words attempt to get people to think something alleged is stated as a fact, rather than being the opinion that an allegation really states. In grading essays, weasel words are one of the first thing we teacher-types try to weasel out. :D


Therefore stating that I "seem to continue to duck, bob, and weave", might be your opinion, but you dare not claim that as fact and you certainly know it. :wink:

I have given my clearly expressed professionally determined facts AND opinions here. You can certainly remark on those, but if you use weasel words, I will catch them, and in terms that I am sure that you understand sir, I will offer them into evidence. :D


I'm no lawyer, but I did take a wee bit of law in college. Amazing what you can learn. :roll:


Partial disclosure regarding possible ducking, bobbing, and weaving on my part: I SEEM to recall bobbing for apples at a birthday party, and I really SEEMED to enjoy watching Kung Fu on TV. :lol:

Let's cut to the chase here.

Would I vote for you if you were to run for school board? I think I WOULD!

We very much NEED people like you to question, opine, and to help make sure that the District's" I's" are dotted and "T's" crossed. There are however a few things that you would discover.

1) School Board salaries are abysmal, particularly when you take into consideration the long hours and the extra time spent dealing with people day and night, visiting schools, encouraging students, preparing for meetings, etc. It looks so easy from the outside. Some might even call it a thankless job, but it is an extremely rewarding one for those who love kids and schools.

2) Due to Federal and State mandates, there are so many areas where a local school board's hands are tied. As you so very well point out, our school board is fully accountable to State and Federal laws, rules, regulations, guidelines, and so forth. So many times, a local board's hands are fully tied, as are the hands of local teachers, staff, etc. all of which leads to my final point here:


With our local hands tied so often these days, figuratively at least, who then is REALLY is to blame if we receive a C or D or F or whatever? Going back to my point about test creation, should my students be blamed if I give them a test that I know they'll all fail? :D Truth be told, any day of the week, I could have designed a test that my students would all fail, all pass, or neatly bell curve. I therefore could literally have determined grades by whatever subjective rubric I designed, should I have wanted to do so.


Of course, coming out of Special Education, we had Individualized Education Plans tailored to each student. Perhaps ALL students need those, but I digress here. :shock:


The key, and the difficulty is to come up with truly objective rubrics, and with human beings and what they bring to the table of life, that is a very difficult thing to do. :!:

I would invite you to think about that one very seriously for a moment, if you will. :shock:

Indeed then, perhaps we need to better define FAILURE and who or what is REALLY failing here. :shock:

Good debate Brian. Why not run for school board? I wish you would... :D

Back to the banjo...and our EXCELLENT Lakewood Schools! :D



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