Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

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cmager
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby cmager » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:02 pm

Matthew Lee wrote:Finally, add up those raw numbers (in Lakewood's case 299 + 140 = 341) and divide by a Graduation Cohort number (731) and you get a percent of 46.6% of a D. But, what EXACTLY is the Graduation Cohort number?

From what I could find, there were 759 -ish students in the 2018 graduating class.
Mr. Lee, thank you for taking the time to understand, explain, and provide a narrative on these numbers and this grade. Too many are too willing to take a "letter grade" at some face value, and use/misuse it.


Matthew Lee
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Matthew Lee » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:14 pm

cmager wrote:
Matthew Lee wrote:Finally, add up those raw numbers (in Lakewood's case 299 + 140 = 341) and divide by a Graduation Cohort number (731) and you get a percent of 46.6% of a D. But, what EXACTLY is the Graduation Cohort number?

From what I could find, there were 759 -ish students in the 2018 graduating class.
Mr. Lee, thank you for taking the time to understand, explain, and provide a narrative on these numbers and this grade. Too many are too willing to take a "letter grade" at some face value, and use/misuse it.


Hi cmager,

Thanks for the kind words.

As an FYI, there were definitely not 750-ish students in the 2018 graduating class. I know because my daughter was one of them and we did not sit through 759 odd names at graduation. Her class was about 350 or so. Definitely not 700.


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:07 am

May I suggest that the above discussion proves my original point---Lakewood Schools are objectively average--and the School Board should be held accountable.

The arguments of those who disagree or resist that conclusion rests on the argument Lakewood Schools are somehow better than the C grade because the state's grading system is somehow unfair due to our immigrant and low income population. At the core of the argument is the premise that low income children are harder to teach (and on the average are less prepared to be successful). Contrary to the arguments, the C grade and D grade I point out above actually prove the the leadership of Lakewood Schools under Beebe Einhouse et al are no better than average at educating our underserved population than other communities are at educating that population segment, because if Lakewood was in fact doing a better job, the the state's grading system would reflect that result.

Instead, the School Board got and overall C--in line with expectations--not exceeding them.


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Matthew Lee
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Matthew Lee » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:24 pm

Brian Essi wrote:if Lakewood was in fact doing a better job, the the state's grading system would reflect that result.


According to you. Your above statement is not fact. It is an opinion based on the assumption that the state's grading system is accurate and fair and should be taken at face value.

As I mentioned above, the state's grading system may not be as fair or perfect as you might like it to be. In no way am I stating we cannot do better, but to take the grade at face value and not do any further analysis is (IMHO) disingenuous.

However, I cannot stop anyone from looking at the grade and crying out "the sky is falling" any more than anyone can stop me from asking to look further into the make up of the grade. To each their own.


Mark Kindt
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Mark Kindt » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:53 pm

Matthew Lee wrote:
Brian Essi wrote:if Lakewood was in fact doing a better job, the the state's grading system would reflect that result.


According to you. Your above statement is not fact. It is an opinion based on the assumption that the state's grading system is accurate and fair and should be taken at face value.

As I mentioned above, the state's grading system may not be as fair or perfect as you might like it to be. In no way am I stating we cannot do better, but to take the grade at face value and not do any further analysis is (IMHO) disingenuous.

However, I cannot stop anyone from looking at the grade and crying out "the sky is falling" any more than anyone can stop me from asking to look further into the make up of the grade. To each their own.


I respect Mr. Lee's opinion because he took the time to examine the methodology. I also respect his opinion because his subjective experience as a parent does count in this debate.

I respect Mr. Essi's opinion because he had taken great pains to examine other public documents and has taken considerable personal abuse for his commitment to open and transparent government.

Let me temporarily broaden the discussion for a moment.

Our local public official have taken the citizens and taxpayers of Lakewood to a certain place that should be recognized, understood, and corrected at the ballot box.

1. The State of Ohio has just told us we have "average" schools.

2. The City of Lakewood is now demolishing its award-noted community hospital.

3. The City of Lakewood failed to qualify as an "opportunity zone" (despite the low income problems noted above) and that failure will reduce future investment in our community.

4. The School Board has doled-out subsidized clinical space to the largest enterprise in the State of Ohio.

5. The City of Lakewood is providing both direct and indirect public subsidies to a variety of private entities from the liquidation of its hospital.

6. The City of Lakewood abandoned valuable revenue streams in 2015.

As citizens and taxpayers, we understand that we are one of the higher taxed communities in Northeast Ohio.

Are these outcomes that we should expect? Or should we hold our local public officials to a somewhat higher standard?

In general, I see this as a much broader problem than just the performance of our school system. I respect the hard-working teachers and administrators and volunteers.

There is room for intelligent dialogue and let's let the Deck thrive with balance and courtesy.


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:22 pm

Matthew Lee wrote:
Brian Essi wrote:if Lakewood was in fact doing a better job, the the state's grading system would reflect that result.


According to you. Your above statement is not fact. It is an opinion based on the assumption that the state's grading system is accurate and fair and should be taken at face value.




Mr. Lee,

Perhaps I am not making my point clear enough. The state grading system, with all its limitations, is what it is---the system is applied to all schools in the state in the same manner--its does not discriminate against Lakewood per se. So, if Lakewood gets a C and theoretical school systems X, Y and Z all have the same demographic mix as Lakewood and all get Cs too, then Lakewood is providing no objectively better education of its children (low income or others) on average than school systems X, Y, Z are providing. So, it follows that Lakewood's School Board cannot escape the conclusion that the system they lead is "average".

As Mr. Kindt has pointed out, Lakewood residents pay generally higher taxes and to the extent that Lakewood spends more on education than X, Y and Z, then one could argue that our School Board is not as successful as the leaders in X, Y and Z.

Stated differently, if we claim Lakewood Schools are "special", then X, Y and Z are objectively "special" too.


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Gary Rice
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:50 pm

Every school district is or should be special, for the simple reason that they are charged with educating the single most valuable resource that a community has. :!: :!: :!:


Lakewood's state report card for this year may have AVERAGED out as a C, but as anyone who knows it realizes, that was just a composite average of fourteen indicators, of which four were above a C in ranking, (including two "A" grades) and only two were below a C in ranking.


As a professional educator with a great deal of recent experience in Lakewood's schools, I've never found waste, or administrators or teachers who were anything less than professional, friendly, kind, knowledgeable, and who did not want 100% for their students. In my professional opinion, we have a truly great district. :D


Period. :D


While we consider that one, we may as well think about one particular aspect with all these Cuyahoga County districts when we compare their so-called "grades" Take a look at the official Ohio testing website for yourself, if you will. Look at perhaps ten districts and their grades, then go to the "district details" page for each of those districts. You'll see graphs there and the first graph with student statistics will show the percentage of "economically disadvantaged" students in a district. Some of your highest graded school districts will report having virtually NO economically disadvantaged students. Student economic disadvantage alone would appear to have a very telling effect on a district's report card, even when weighed in balance with per-pupil expenditures. Check it out for yourself comparatively, and see. :shock:

Lakewood's 2018 "A" valued added grades go to the heart of our district's efforts to address the needs of ALL our students!


Back to the banjo... :D


Matthew Lee
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Matthew Lee » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:42 am

Brian Essi wrote:
Matthew Lee wrote:
Brian Essi wrote:if Lakewood was in fact doing a better job, the the state's grading system would reflect that result.


According to you. Your above statement is not fact. It is an opinion based on the assumption that the state's grading system is accurate and fair and should be taken at face value.




Mr. Lee,

Perhaps I am not making my point clear enough. The state grading system, with all its limitations, is what it is---the system is applied to all schools in the state in the same manner--its does not discriminate against Lakewood per se. So, if Lakewood gets a C and theoretical school systems X, Y and Z all have the same demographic mix as Lakewood and all get Cs too, then Lakewood is providing no objectively better education of its children (low income or others) on average than school systems X, Y, Z are providing. So, it follows that Lakewood's School Board cannot escape the conclusion that the system they lead is "average".

As Mr. Kindt has pointed out, Lakewood residents pay generally higher taxes and to the extent that Lakewood spends more on education than X, Y and Z, then one could argue that our School Board is not as successful as the leaders in X, Y and Z.

Stated differently, if we claim Lakewood Schools are "special", then X, Y and Z are objectively "special" too.


Thanks, Brian.

Who are school systems X, Y and Z? I am interested in which districts you think the Lakewood school system should be compared to with the same demographic/socio-economic mix.


Bridget Conant
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Bridget Conant » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:53 am

The big picture.

Students who come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds perform better in school. They perform better on tests, especially those like the SAT. This is not a conjecture, it is a fact borne out by numerous studies.

It is also a fact that such a student will do OK no matter where they attend school. So basically, kids with the good luck of being born into a higher socioeconomic level don’t need to be worried about too much.

The biggest issue in this school discussion should be “how do we educate and uplift the child who does not have the resources at home that support learning and growth?” The ones that pull down school performance “grades” and create these discussions?

It seems to me that both public and charter schools (a supposed solution) are not doing a good job of helping these children. Forget private schools - they cater to those who really don’t need extra help.

So much potential is lost by not helping these kids grow and learn. My cynical side thinks nothing will ever change. We are entrenched in our institutions and attitudes and unwillingness to help those less fortunate. I’m sure 10 years from now, the grading tests may have changed but the same conversation will be had. The problem is bigger than the schools.


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:52 am

Bridget Conant wrote:The big picture.

The biggest issue in this school discussion should be “how do we educate and uplift the child who does not have the resources at home that support learning and growth?” The ones that pull down school performance “grades” and create these discussions?




It is my experience, that this might be the biggest single factor. Parents that are actively engaged and positive in their children's learning experiences.

This was always reflected in a non-school that Ken Warren used to highlight each year called the Prism Report.

As students parent work more hours, and hour grandparents take over the home life, grades suffer.

It is also a problem with peer pressure, so that when kids all bound for college tend to drag their friends into that mindset.

FWIW

.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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Gary Rice
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Gary Rice » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:38 am

Ah, but there is hope. :D

In many districts, (even those having many F grades) according to the Ohio testing website, factors such as gap closing and serving the lowest 20% are often showing much better progress than the rest of a district's grades.

Lakewood, as mentioned, got an "A" in its service to the lowest 20%. :D

The public education world has been looking hard and fast at how to best serve the lower end of the academic bell curve for some time now, thanks in part to the Federal "No Child Left Behind Act" from a generation ago, and while that has undergone many changes over the years, our public schools have been at the forefront of change for the better worldwide, regarding that population.

In comparing US scores with many other countries, their academic measurements may at times superficially SEEM better than those in the USA for the very reason that other district scores SEEM to be better than Lakewood's in the recent state comparisons. Those foreign schools that SEEM to score better than we are, simply do not include economically disadvantaged students in their populations.

Whether those students are weeded out by attrition in other countries, or are simply denied opportunities that we present to everyone in America, in our country, we work with all students extraordinarily well, particularly here in Lakewood, but also indeed and especially so in Ohio's high risk districts too.


Finally, I think it of great importance that we DO NOT EQUATE economic disadvantage with lower intelligence. :!:

Truthfully, some of the most economically disadvantaged high risk students that I've taught over the years were some of the most brilliant and resourceful students I've ever known! It's just when family, home, financial, and environmental factors outside of school get to be overwhelming for a young person, they too have to prioritize. :roll:

Kudos to Lakewood Observer's Jim O'Bryan here too by the way, for working with Lakewood City Academy, our alternative school serving a number of such students potentially having multiple concerns beyond the classroom.

The Ohio testing website will tell you NOT to judge a school district by graded results alone, but to look at the whole picture. For those who bother to study the whole picture, they will understand that- far from failing, even districts having multiple F grades are working hard to reach all students, and those districts are demonstrating significant measurable progress in doing so.


Charter schools, private schools, home schooling? Those are all potentially viable alternative settings for parents who feel the necessity to separate their children from the rest of our kids for whatever reason. At the same time, and for the same reasons expressed here many times, those settings can come with their own shortcomings too. :shock:


All of us, whether we're parents, students, or community leaders, need to continue to remain aware and engaged with public education in order to insure the best possible outcomes for all of our students. :D


Back to the banjo... :D


Bridget Conant
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Bridget Conant » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:54 am

Finally, I think it of great importance that we DO NOT EQUATE economic disadvantage with lower intelligence. :!:


Absolutely!

I hope no one got that impression from my post because it’s so far from what I believe. I think it’s a tragedy that so much talent is wasted because of lost opportunity.


Brian Essi
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Brian Essi » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:17 am

Bridget Conant wrote:
Finally, I think it of great importance that we DO NOT EQUATE economic disadvantage with lower intelligence. :!:


Absolutely!

I hope no one got that impression from my post because it’s so far from what I believe. I think it’s a tragedy that so much talent is wasted because of lost opportunity.



Ditto

Also, I have several friends who teach in the Lakewood Schools and know through them of the challenges faced based on our demographics---most teachers work hard and go above and beyond in helping our students. My comments above are all directed at the system and those leaders who crow about and exaggerate their successes and need to be held accountable for their failures.


David Anderson has no legitimate answers
Tim Liston
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Tim Liston » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:10 am

Did Lakewood High School fail to produce even a single 2019 National Merit Semifinalist this year from a class of around 750? Looks that way.

From 750 randomly-chosen students, the odds of not a single one becoming a Semifinalist are about one in 2000.

.99 ^ 750 = .0005326

How does that happen?


Christine Gordillo
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Re: Grade C for Lakewood City Schools?

Postby Christine Gordillo » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:12 am

Mr. Liston, you are correct that LHS had no Semifinalists in this year's senior class but you are incorrect basing your calculations on last year's graduating class, which was 320 students, not 750. Semifinalists come from the test current seniors take in their junior year.



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