Property Reappraisals Out

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Mark Kindt
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Mark Kindt » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:14 pm

bentleymike wrote:
Matthew Lee wrote:Or, this is simply reflecting the increase in housing prices that has occurred in Lakewood over the past five years.


Based on the fact that people want to live here, and raise kids here...


I agree with Mr. Lee, Mr. Bentley, and Mr. Kuhns.

The trends that we are discussing are multiple and intersecting.

For a while at least there is demonstrable increase, something of a spike, in the value of home sales in Lakewood. The new tax appraisals reflect some "sticker shock" to home owners that doubt that the resale values of their homes could have increased this much.

Even more of a sticker shock to retiree homeowners living on a fixed income.

Yes, the population in both the city and the county is declining. Economic growth in the county also lags. City is likely similar. Lakewood housing seems to be commanding premium prices.

Despite my extensive criticism of the city administration and its years of misguided policies, Lakewood has fine attributes as a community with classic housing; much of it newly renovated and flipped as upgraded stock into the market. What's not to like about fine old homes in comfortable neighborhoods? Pick your street. --Manor Park, Arthur, Riverside, Daleview......

The school district has successfully rebuilt the schools. The dialogue here doesn't have to be all critical. I leave it to others to praise Lakewood. My focus is more narrow.


bentleymike
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby bentleymike » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:11 pm

mjkuhns wrote:
Matthew Lee wrote:My point is, and feel free to find facts if it refutes it, that single family homes in Lakewood are at a premium and houses are selling faster than ever.

First it was "there are many, many people who actually want to live in Lakewood. Thus, housing prices have increased." If this statement had any point, it was an assertion that population pressure was driving up house prices.

That assertion having been disproved, now it's "single family homes in Lakewood are at a premium and houses are selling faster than ever" which seems in this context not actually to make a point in favor or against anything that is at issue.

If my own meaning needs to be made more explicit, it's this:

I am out of patience with people trying to brush aside dissatisfaction by saying "Lakewood is popular." There are two problems with this. First, it's fundamentally an invalid argument. It is factually accurate to say that there are many, many people who actually want to live in the United States—but that does not delegitimize complaints about the direction of our country. (Nor does it necessitate rising house prices.) Second, it is factually inaccurate to claim that Lakewood is growing, and it is unethical to imply such to be the case.

I am out of patience with people who do. Those who continue to do so after being confronted with the facts are simply engaged in deception, and I am too old to waste my time on bad-faith argument. By the same token, I have no interest in trying to engage with people who move the goalposts between one comment and the next.


Mr. Kuhns,

You are right that the population has shrunk in Lakewood. I also believe this is more of a size of household thing rather than people running for the hills. When my parents grew up in Lakewood there were 15-20 families off the top of their head that had 4+ kids, some even with 10+. When I was growing up in Lakewood, I knew nearly 10 families in that range. The largest having 13 kids. Now, of people in Lakewood that I personally know, I can think of less than a handful with 4+ kids. To Mr. Kindt's point, we have an aging portion of the population where 1-2 people are in a household. The younger folks in town, tend to also have 1-2 people in a household, as they don't have children, or not yet starting a family. I don't think Mr. Lee or myself are necessarily incorrect in the fact that people actually want to live in Lakewood, and it's helping drive up prices. It's just a matter of the sizes of the households. In recent years, I've also met quite a few people who have moved to Lakewood from out of state, and love the city-life aspect, but also being a smaller town that's walkable, with unbelievably affordable housing, in comparison to where they came from.

It's hard for me to argue that every penny the county charges us in property tax is justifiable. I find issues with some programming, especially the recycling program, which has seemed to get more and more problematic in recent years, and makes me feel we're going backwards. But, I digress.

We are also likely walking a fine line with taxes over the years, as that can be the difference in some affordability versus unaffordability for some in a mortgage. If the bank doesn't catch the increase in time, that can be doubly painful later on for a homeowner. I hope county leaders are beginning to look more and more a cost savings for when the economy tumbles again (not if, when).

By and large, I feel the schools have been pretty responsible with the money, especially when they refinanced a ton of debt last year to save over $500K in annual interest expenses. That was a smart move. The revaluations are a tough pill to swallow, but maybe it reduces, or possibly eliminates (though doubtful on eliminating) the amount the schools will need to ask for in an operating levy. There are a lot of boomerang residents (I am one) that return to Lakewood after college, or moving out of the area for a job, to raise a family, so the school levies, if done in a smart manner, are a wise investment into Lakewood's future.


Mike Bentley
Bridget Conant
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Bridget Conant » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:44 pm

You can see the new values for any property in Lakewood by searching for an address or owner name. You can even just put in a street name and see all the different value changes even on one block.

Very interesting that our mayor was spared much of an increase on his property - he’s only going up 10% while other homes on his street were up 30% or more.

Hmmmm.

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/07/cuyahoga_county_home_appraisal.html#incart_m-rpt-1


Matthew Lee
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Matthew Lee » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:54 pm

mjkuhns wrote:
Matthew Lee wrote:My point is, and feel free to find facts if it refutes it, that single family homes in Lakewood are at a premium and houses are selling faster than ever.

First it was "there are many, many people who actually want to live in Lakewood. Thus, housing prices have increased." If this statement had any point, it was an assertion that population pressure was driving up house prices.

That assertion having been disproved, now it's "single family homes in Lakewood are at a premium and houses are selling faster than ever" which seems in this context not actually to make a point in favor or against anything that is at issue.

If my own meaning needs to be made more explicit, it's this:

I am out of patience with people trying to brush aside dissatisfaction by saying "Lakewood is popular." There are two problems with this. First, it's fundamentally an invalid argument. It is factually accurate to say that there are many, many people who actually want to live in the United States—but that does not delegitimize complaints about the direction of our country. (Nor does it necessitate rising house prices.) Second, it is factually inaccurate to claim that Lakewood is growing, and it is unethical to imply such to be the case.

I am out of patience with people who do. Those who continue to do so after being confronted with the facts are simply engaged in deception, and I am too old to waste my time on bad-faith argument. By the same token, I have no interest in trying to engage with people who move the goalposts between one comment and the next.


Then I guess you are out of patience with me. Feel free to argue your house value with the county. I am not engaged in deception but, if you are out of patience with me, then there is no way to convince you otherwise.


Brian Essi
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Brian Essi » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:45 am

The above discussion ignores the plight of chickens coming home to roost in Lakewood.


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:02 am

Brian Essi wrote:The above discussion ignores the plight of chickens coming home to roost in Lakewood.



Brian

Actually Chickens have come home to roost in Cuyahoga County.

The complete failure of the Cleveland Foundation Team Neo, City of Cleveland to get anything going no matter how many grants they get is placing the entire county in peril, including Lakewood.

We have been accelerating loss of humans from 13.7 a day to 15 a day. The only way to make it up is raising taxes on those still here.

While they continue to cut services.

Indeed the chickens have come home to roost.

.


Jim O'Bryan
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todd vainisi
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby todd vainisi » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:29 am

Holy cow. They want to raise mine 33% from their 2015 valuation. Ridiculous. A house just like mine sold down the street from me for exactly what they've got me valued at now. We were just coming to the decision to dig our heels in and ride out my younger daughter's childhood here. Now they want another $220 a month of property tax (on our cape cod at the extremely unfashionable southern most end of lakewood near I-90). That's a car payment! My wife and I are both professionals with reasonable incomes. Lakewood is pricing us out. Lakewood should want my family here. We are completely middle class and pay our way without subsidies on everything. Maybe after they get rid of my family, they can move in a new family that will default on the mortgage for the egregious bubble price they paid to live in my home with 4 kids that all qualify for free crap at everyone else's expense.


Bridget Conant
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Bridget Conant » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:34 am

Todd.

I feel for you.

Now imagine a retired person and a fixed income. Or a suddenly single mother. Or just normal people like you, working steady, paying their way, but not much expendable income.

In what way is this unvoted tax increase, none of it going to the schools, a GOOD thing? Plenty of Team Summers cheerleaders saying it’s great, but for the average Lakewood resident that would like to stay in their home, paying extra money every month to Cuyahoga County is not a fun prospect.

As discussed here on another thread, at some point these high taxes will put a crimp in sale prices. I mean, why but in Lakewood when Avon has significantly lower taxes? And home prices not much different anymore. And they have major shopping and a shiny new hospital!

No, increased taxes are not good. The schools will have a hard sell next spring.


willskora
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby willskora » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:01 pm

These prices are calculated by the county, not the city so our frustrations should be towards the county and not the city in this specific instance.


Bridget Conant
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Bridget Conant » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:11 pm

Yes yes, we know it’s the county reappraisal.

What is annoying is the city cheerleaders acting like it’s SO GREAT that taxes are going up, and the insinuation that increased property values are somehow their doing. :roll:


Matthew Lee
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Matthew Lee » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:11 pm

Bridget Conant wrote:Yes yes, we know it’s the county reappraisal.

What is annoying is the city cheerleaders acting like it’s SO GREAT that taxes are going up, and the insinuation that increased property values are somehow their doing. :roll:


Bridget,

What city cheerleaders are "acting like it's SO GREAT that taxes are going up"? I have not seen any quotes from anyone that is excited about taxes going up.

And if your are insinuating that it is me: (a) I never said it was great that taxes are going up and (b) I am hardly a city cheerleader.

But, I will happily stand corrected if there are some actual quotes from our city leaders that say it is "great that taxes are going up".


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:06 am

Matthew Lee wrote:
Bridget Conant wrote:Yes yes, we know it’s the county reappraisal.

What is annoying is the city cheerleaders acting like it’s SO GREAT that taxes are going up, and the insinuation that increased property values are somehow their doing. :roll:


Bridget,

What city cheerleaders are "acting like it's SO GREAT that taxes are going up"? I have not seen any quotes from anyone that is excited about taxes going up.

And if your are insinuating that it is me: (a) I never said it was great that taxes are going up and (b) I am hardly a city cheerleader.

But, I will happily stand corrected if there are some actual quotes from our city leaders that say it is "great that taxes are going up".


Matt

I have heard many people say and act like the new evaluations are GREAT NEWS. Like so many things in life it mirrors the OJ Simpson Trial, and something Chris Rock once said, "Some people too happy, some people too mad." While it does speak of value of homes in Lakewood and for that matter the county, it also reaches into the darkness with a slight increase in tax rates, and a smoke screen on how fewer residents in the county, will end up forcing those left in the county to pay more, for the same, and in some city cases even less because of cuts to services.

As "talk in coffee shops" have entered into the Observer lexicon, one of the very real conversations is, "If you bought a house not thinking taxes would go up, you were foolish." Cost of living is up, and with it many other aspects in life.

What worries me, is a national bubble, a state bubble, a county bubble and a Lakewood bubble, that is beginning to look like a bubble bath. As Mr Essi has pointed out the proverbial chicken is coming home to roost at some point. With nearly 15 residents less everyday, at some point soon, no matter how many lots are torn down by the Land Bank, we will have a glut. Also much of Lakewood's new "wealth" are from the condos falling into the neighborhoods that never really fit into Lakewood's past, but being forced on us by a marriage between the City Administration, Ex-City Administration and their developer friends and associates.

It shall be interesting to see where it all ends up when the music stops.

.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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Bill Call
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Re: Property Reappraisals Out

Postby Bill Call » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:00 am

Matthew Lee wrote:What city cheerleaders are "acting like it's SO GREAT that taxes are going up"? I have not seen any quotes from anyone that is excited about taxes going up.



Increases in property taxes caused by an increase in property values mean that the City and County get more money without having to take the blame for asking for a tax increase. I suspect that most elected officials are happy about the increased tax collections but aren't going to say so publically.

Most of Cuyahoga County is still recovering from the steep drop in prices from ten years ago. The exception is the Lakeshore area including Lakewood, Rocky River and Bay Village.

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.s ... _ri_1.html

The values in some areas of the County are barely above where they were 10 years ago.


This is a handy tool:

https://www.zillow.com/parma-oh/home-values/

I am still trying to understand the City and County policy of moving people and economic activity to Lorain County and beyond. Can someone explain that?



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