Let's not get this way, or are we?

[Mark Crnolatas]

I didn't see it, but a neighbor told me that on the Today show, yesterday, a situation was staged, to prove a point. A young girl (around 5 yrs old) was videotaped screaming for for help, as in EXTREME distress, and no one would stop to help her. This was in NYC, which has been for years, famous for " I don't want to get involved", but I've seen this first hand MANY times while working around the Cleveland area.

I'm not trying to be a preacher here, but I just wanted to highlight this, and
mention that we all need continue to educate our kids, and even our neighbors, to yes, get involved, and at least inside the borders of our city, we won't ever get so calloused to ignore someone in need of help.

For what it's worth.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Today show segment was about how to prevent your child from being abducted. It was entirely staged and presented by actors.

It was not a test to see who would respond. Your "neighbor" misunderstood the presentation.

I'd suggest you see things first hand instead of relying on others because the information you get is incorrect and you don't want to appear like a ninny, do you?

BTW, child abduction is a media creation. Although this article is a bit dated, it is still true today:

http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=oped&ID=95

And here is an article specifically about the Today Show segment:

http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=556

[Suzanne Metelko]

Grace,

I did see the segment yesterday. It was a child, struggling with a man and yelling " please help me, this is not my father". People of all types walked by and did nothing to help. It was to illustrate how we should act should we witness something like this. It included tips on following the person while calling 911 and could really be applied to other circumstances. Domestic violence etc. They were trying to point out that you don't necessarily have to engage to help. But most of these people weren't doing anything.

What surprised the folks staging this, including law enforcement officers, was who did stop. Three young men (18 maybe) walked by, slowed, turned and within seconds spread out, surrounded the guy and advanced on him. He immediately stopped and pointed out the law enforcement and cameras.

In my book, they were heros.

[Mark Crnolatas]

My error. I'm sorry. I'll remember that when I might make the error in thinking I might use the information from members on this board for information, rather than seeing "it", whatever "it" might be, myself, so I don't appear to be a ninny.

[dl meckes]

Whether or not the media plays to our worst fears, there are bad people out there.

It is also possible that a child having a tantrum can say something like, "don't hit me again" or "he's not my father."

It's a good idea to know what to do when something looks or feels wrong and it's important to trust your feelings. It's also a great idea to have a clue about what to do if someone needs help.

So the Today Show used scare tactics to make people look. Maybe, as Suzanne suggests, they taught a few techniques about how to be a decent witness. That's a more difficult job than people realize and it takes practice.

Being aware of what's happening around you is a key to survival.

[Grace O'Malley]

Unfortunately, dl, the "bad people" out there that children should fear are often their own parents or family members. How do you prepare for, or guard against that?

If you read the links, the number of children "missing" is comprised mostly of children who were taken by a non-custodial parent and children who ran away. The majority of the runaway children return in a few days.

The fact remains that the the chances of your child being abducted by a stranger are minute. You would do better to focus your energy on risks and dangers that are more likely.

[Mark Crnolatas]

I wouldn't infer that people should interfere, nor rush to help someone when help really isn't needed. When the obvious is happening, such as a child or adult screaming for help, then it doesn't take an expert to at least look at what's going on.

I myself, was in a situation that knocked me out, on a busy street, and no one stopped to help me. After 5 or 10 minutes, who knows exactly how long, a police car happened to drive by and did help. All I remember is a lot of cars going by, and that's what they were doing, going by. It didn't take an expert to know this guy was bleeding and maybe could have used some help.

In a dark humor sort of way, I laugh at it now, but at the time, I was just angry.

I didn't bring up the 2nd hand reference for any reason other than I have seen and been part of indifference.

I am simply saying there are many people who don't want to "get involved" and that's too bad. We need awareness, not only what is around us, but what is going on in general, and be at least willing to keep our eyes.

[Suzanne Metelko]

Mark,

I think your story is precisely what the Today Show was trying to illustrate. Not enough of us know what to do when faced with circumstances outside of our comfort zone. We fear being embarrassed more that we fear for the safety of our neighbors. We care more about being sued more than we care about the well being of those around us. I find your experience to be so sad. How do you walk by someone who is obviously injured and needs help?

As for missing and exploited children, I 'm not sure how educating the public on any level about any aspect of child endangerment, abuse or abduction, whether it is by stranger or family member is a bad thing. However, in this one instance the Today Show was focusing on the reaction of the bystander not the act of the alleged perpatrator.

[Charyn Varkonyi]

Unfortunately, there are a number of reasons why people DONT stop and - if examined carefully - they mostly trace back to fear of one type or another.

1) Fear of litigation... if they do the wrong thing the can be sued.

2) In the case of injuries - fear of disease

3) Fear of personal harm (lets face it - there are not man people that would sacrifice their own personal safety to help another)

4) Fear of being wrong and making an a-- of themselves

etc...

I am not saying that I find any of these things right... but I do hypothesize that if we hadnt added the first two reasons over the last few decades that we would have a lot more people that would be willing to help.

FFT

Peace,
~Charyn

[Phil Florian]

Hi Suzanne!

As for missing and exploited children, I 'm not sure how educating the public on any level about any aspect of child endangerment, abuse or abduction, whether it is by stranger or family member is a bad thing.

Actually in my field working with adults and children with disabilities, we DID find some education was, in fact, a bad thing. It all was around "stranger danger." We spent a lot of time in the 80's and 90's teaching adults and particularly children with disabilties (as well as those without) that strangers were dangerous. Don't approach them. Don't follow them. Don't listen to them. And so on. Fear the "stranger with candy." What we did was create a world of fear for these folks. You walk into a mall. What is it filled with? Strangers. What happens if something happens to you? You get lost, you hurt yourself, you lose your wallet...who do you turn to when all around you are the very strangers that you were taught to fear. The problem when teaching people with cognitive impairments was that it was hard to teach competing concepts: That some strangers are good and others are not. So they went with the safest and in the 90's we have an example of a woman with disabililities who was abducted in a public place and not a soul helped her...because she was too afraid to ask for help.

I think the opposite message should be taught...strangers are more likely to be good people who when asked for help will gladly offer it. This is a) more likely and b) a lesson that will improve people's interactions throughout the community. We teach more about personal space...who can touch you, where they can touch you and what you should do if someone does. Less about who is doing it.

I think the problem with kids in public also is that a child is more likely to scream like a banshee if their loving parents are simply pulling them from the toy section at Target (no, this has NEVER happened to me and my child! ). People see this all the time. Should people intervene whenever a child has an absolutely normal tantrum in public? More than likely a child will clam up if a stranger or, as Grace pointed out, someone they are familiar with (a father who has been out of the picture for a while, an aunt, a neighbor, etc.) takes them from a public place.

Mark's case is a sad one. Is it normal? Typical? I don't know. When my wife took a nasty spill next to our house last summer a TON of people swarmed from other yards to see if she was okay. I have seen people help others and have done so myself. I am hoping that Mark's story is the exception, not the rule. But I think the points about people fearing to get involved is correct, even if good samaritan laws protect the helper. Which is too bad. I think we forgot how to be good neighbors in this country.

[Grace O'Malley]

As it turns out, the actual probability of a child being snatched up and murdered is about one in a million. To provide perspective lacking in the media, a child is twice as likely to fall victim to accidental shooting, 10 times more likely to drown in a backyard pool, and 100 times more likely to be seriously injured or killed on a bicycle. As Barry Glassner, a sociology professor at USC puts it, "It's hard to imagine any serious danger to children that is less likely than kidnapping by a stranger."

From here:

http://www.uwire.com/content/topops081902001.html

Maybe we should focus more energy on encouraging kids to wear helmets and ride in safe areas. Or,perhaps we should just ban bicycle riding?

[dl meckes]

Unfortunately, dl, the "bad people" out there that children should fear are often their own parents or family members. How do you prepare for, or guard against that?

If you read the links, the number of children "missing" is comprised mostly of children who were taken by a non-custodial parent and children who ran away. The majority of the runaway children return in a few days.

The fact remains that the the chances of your child being abducted by a stranger are minute. You would do better to focus your energy on risks and dangers that are more likely.

Not arguing that point at all. Stranger danger is NOTHING when compared with the danger from friends/family.

Being aware of how people behave, watching interaction between your kids and others, listening to the kinds of things they say and trusting your gut can all help.

Details can be important. Not because of the threat of abduction, but all sorts of stuff can happen to people. It really isn't easy to be a good witness and you never know when you will need that skill.

I saw a man take a terrible fall on the street on evening. (Mark - was that you? I called the cops & it didn't take 5 minutes!) There seemed to be something wrong with him, but I wasn't sure what it was. I just knew that his glasses made sparks as he fell into a building. I immediately called 911 and told them what I saw and where the man was. Thankfully he wasn't in the street. In my rush to get to a phone, I didn't take 20 extra seconds to look at the man's clothing. Had he gotten up and wandered away, that might have helped identify him to ES more quickly. At least I could give a reasonable physical description of the man so ES wasn't looking for a tall, thin, short, fat, blond guy with black hair.

It's also really easy to communicate the wrong information to children. My folks taught me never to get into a stranger's car. That advice backfired when a friend of my mother's offered me a ride home from grade school (in the pouring rain). I didn't know her and it didn't matter that she had a station wagon full of her own kids. I ran all the way home in fear.

There's a happy medium about being aware of what's going on around you and using scare tactics. You can help people without being a hero (or stupid).

I agree that the Today Show probably used scare tactics to teach some basic lessons of, "if you see something wrong, what should you do?"

Using a red herring like child abduction gets far more eyes than, "if it hasn't rained and the street's wet, WHAT SHOULD YOU DO!?!"

[Mark Crnolatas]

It wasn't me. A Lkwd police car just happened to drive by and saw me, and they helped out. No one had called them.

As far as is it the norm? I suppose it depends on the area. Before we owned our own security provider/PI biz, we worked for an security/PI agency that worked extremely close with Cleveland PD on a daily basis. One particular assignment was an area that was a property we were assigned to keep the peace on, but it had many small properties as part of the main contracted area scattered around a 15 x 10 block area. In Cleveland, at the time, to work with this agency, we had to be "commissioned" by the city of Cleveland, and that gave us misdemeanor arrest authority, and of course felony arrest, as everyone has.

We worked this area, and there was a tacet agreement with CPD that we also help take care of the area that wasn't necessarily part of the contracted properties. We didn't replace them, but since we were there in the area anyway, we helped where it was needed. Mostly on our own, sometimes directly assisting a zone car or fire dept, EMS, whatever.

In that area, we saw more than most people needed to see, of the more "earthy" side of human nature, as it was a fairly high crime area, and we were busy almost all of the time.

I think just about every weekend in the summers , (the busiest nights for law enforcement as rule) we saw at least 1 of these situations, someone that was in a fight, or passed out for some reason on the sidewalk or lawn or whatever, and we saw many motorists drive right by them, ignoring them like they were not there at all. Again, if we saw them, we would first call CPD, CFD or whoever, then hung in there and did what had to be done till the city came.

Is it the norm? Unfortunatly in that area, it was. We saw similiar in several other areas we worked in Cleveland also. I'm not saying it's that way in every block of Cleveland, just the areas we directly were involved with.

I would also say those experiences among many many others colors my views in general, and also the fantasy quest for a utopian society.

Mark Allan Crnolatas
"A society or group of people exist soley in it's ability to maintain an atmosphere of peace and civility. It's failure is directly relative to the degree of the lack of these conditions".

[DougHuntingdon]

Calling the police is not always the answer, either. A couple months ago I was walking home to Edgewater from the Lakewood Village Tavern around 10pm. All I drank was cranberry juice, as I am about the only one in Lakewood who does not drink. I came across a woman laying on the sidewalk on the Lakewood side of W117 who was crying hysterically and said that she was mugged and had her purse taken. I did not witness the crime, but I think something happened. I called LPD. The first sign of a problem with LPD was when the operator kept trying to coerce me to say that the victim was on the Cleveland side of W117. To make a long story short, the LPD operator acted like I was wasting their time and turned ME into the SUSPECT. They said they would need my name, address, and social security #. (I have never even had a speeding ticket in my life.) I said this is unbelievable. I told her I was trying to do the right thing as an honest citizen, and then I hung up. I checked back with the victim, who was on her feet by this time, and told her to stay there while I went into Walgreens. Fortunately they had a cop in there working security so I told him and he handled the situation from there. I am not trying to bash LPD, but this was just my experience. I do believe, though, that some people may not want to get involved in situations as described in this thread if they think they are going to be hassled by the police.

Doug

[Phil Florian]

Doug, that sounds like a tough situation. Did you report this about the dispatcher? You never know if it is institutional or not. I have found Lakewood police to be pretty responsive to a lot of situations that I have been involved in or have co-workers that are involved (I work in social services on the west side...not a criminal...or at least, not convicted...I mean... ). Anyway, I have only Cleveland police to compare to and right now they make Lakewood look like Supercops. I work a fair amount with Cleveland police and unless you have a bleeding body with the perp stuck to a fence, good luck getting help. I am being harsh and am painting with a very broad brush but I have been burned in a lot of situations where response times are, I kid you not, 10 hours for situations that were still developing (in particular, a situation where a guy was basically tearing up an apartment building in anger). By the time the police showed up near midnight the guy was calm and they saw no problem. Ugh. Granted, I have worked with some nice officers and have had SOME good responses but man...put me in Lakewood any day.

I think there are some seriously bad attitudes about the East Side of Lakewood and this isn't the first time I heard about Lakewood cops avoiding it, sadly. I think they blame Cleveland for any issues that "bleed" over into our pristine city (right). I hope you took this up with someone, though I am betting someone from City Hall will read this.

Good job trying to help, though.