Proselytizing in city parks

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Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:59 pm

But, in reality there is adversity connected with diversity


We don't all agree about everything. In this there will be disagreements. Questions always arise from this fact. When the disagreement is significant enough to put the sides together, when what is disagreed upon is, in effect, between the two sides as a matter of diversity, (too: divert, diversion, diverge!) then it becomes a matter of learning about the other side, and, next, is the negotiation enabled to discover the bridge between the two sides.

***

Religion obviously provides for considerable diversity and adversity. Assumptions about God existing, what comes with those assumptions, who those assumptions apply to, whether God plays favorites, why love is paramount and is so lacking, grow into a family of assumptions, a religion, the religions, and, at the same time cause controversy from the git-go because human's are wired to make choices. Yet, in suggesting as much I've entered quite a disagreeable assumption to some religionists and some atheists. Darnit.

Then there is the multiple and connected spheres of community, neighborhood, family. As many have experienced, the question of the spiritual direction of one's own children can be extremely controversial within the confines of that smallest of communities, the family.

A community literally concedes to, and obeys rules, to allow diversity to exist without too much adversity. It is fully expected those rules go down easier with some folks and not so easily with others.

***

Often the consensual democratic creation of rules and standards work to defeat the sincere and good intentions of others. There is freedom but not freedom from living together in diversity. That this diversity is God’s gift remains a radical position.


Tracy Jones
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Postby Tracy Jones » Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:09 pm

Just more proselityzing from Pastor Joe, only now it is not in the skatepark but here on the Observer.


Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:46 am

Ken. all.

In noting the picking and choosing of the norms provided for by the ethical, (among many,) standards provided for in 'a' religious framework, the discussion immediately drills into the levels and qualities, (ref: Wilber,) the meme dynamics (ref; Cowen & Beck,) descriptive and operational frameworks, (to whit; the disciplinary: psychology, sociology, philosophy, anthropology, history of religion).

Both broadly and with certain particularity, the choice-making at the level of the individual apprehension of a 'metaphysical' perspective also fits into the individual's construction of a worldview, or perspective about individual purpose in what is a cosmic scheme. The cosmic scheme is itself experienced, felt, analyzed, interpreted, concretized, into the seeming facts and beliefs about the nature of one's own reality and how these self-held apprehensions fit into a reality that also makes room for the diversity of self-held apprehensions.

This gets very complicated very quickly. Here is the dovetailing with the concept of cognitive complexity: to what extent do we subject our own world views to a critical estimation of their application beyond the application to just our self, and, beyond the group for which self-held apprehensions are in substantial sympathy, converge together enough so it is valid to see them as self-same, i.e. the group's constitutive individuals are in agreement, even bonded together.

It is possible in the devising of a critical frame to learn from its application to what extent a given world view can actually be criticized by this application. For example, there are many ways to psychologize religious beliefs, (or apprehensions of a world view). Psychologizing proceeds from the recognition that any self-held apprehension is in some way a matter of mental function, and of the properties of mental life. Belief expresses an intention; as does analysis, interpretation, perception, apprehension. In the psychologically-minded view, religious and spiritual experience, understanding is mental, cognitive, an aspect of 'psyche/eros,' etc..

In light of this, no matter what the content of religious or spiritual belief specifically is, is about, the critical framework of psychology, (and 'psychology' here captures all the diverse critical applicable frameworks,) is concerned with, among many concerns, what purposes does the individual's world view serve.

The 'researcher' can divide persons into two categories: one, those who are able to subject their world views to critical analysis re-cognition, re-apprehension, and, two, those who cannot.

But, obviously, this latter category of persons nevertheless may be subjected to this by the outside researcher! Why? Because there is no way to make the case that a given world view is immunized from the ontological actuality: it is necessarily at least partly produced as a matter of mental phenomena. Just as obviously, a world view is a phenomena able to be scrutinized from many disciplinary frameworks.

Religions have developed strategies and tactics enabled for other purposes, but serving often the purpose today, to insulate them from scrutiny. A 'popular one' is the appeal to absolute, concrete, a priori "truth". From which the religionist picks and chooses! The researcher subjects both the truth claim and the psychological process of choosing (from one, but not the other,) to investigation.

***

One of the objectives of building community intelligence is to implement frameworks and tools which cause self-criticism. In a sense, it comes down to that. The ramification of practiced self-criticism poses further results; mentioned previously were re-cognition (to think it over again,) and re-apprehension, (to understand differently,) etc.

The concept of religious tolerance is both simple, and once moved into a critical spheres of inquiry, complex and sophisticated.
Last edited by Stephen Calhoun on Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.


dl meckes
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Postby dl meckes » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:27 pm

Here's how I translate this into language I can understand (please help me if I get it wrong, I'm not too bright);

Stephen Calhoun wrote:
In noting the picking and choosing of the norms provided for by the ethical, (among many,) standards provided for in 'a' religious framework, the discussion immediately drills into the levels and qualities, (ref: Wilber,) the meme dynamics (ref; Cowen & Beck,) descriptive and operational frameworks, (to whit; the disciplinary: psychology, sociology, philosophy, anthropology, history of religion).


When we talk about religion, there are a lot of different factors to consider, because it's a complex issue.

Both broadly and with certain particularity, the choice-making at the level of the individual apprehension of a 'metaphysical' perspective also fits into the individual's construction of a worldview, or perspective about individual purpose in what is a cosmic scheme. The cosmic scheme is itself experienced, felt, analyzed, interpreted, concretized, into the seeming facts and beliefs about the nature of one's own reality and how these self-held apprehensions fit into a reality that also makes room for the diversity of self-held apprehensions.


Spirituality is very personal and individual.

This gets very complicated very quickly. Here is the dovetailing with the concept of cognitive complexity: to what extent do we subject our own world views to a critical estimation of their application beyond the application to just our self, and, beyond the group for which self-held apprehensions are in substantial sympathy, converge together enough so it is valid to see them as self-same, i.e. the group's constitutive individuals are in agreement, even bonded together.


Our individual beliefs cause us to seek others with similar beliefs. This reinforces our beliefs.

It is possible in the devising of a critical frame to learn from its application to what extent a given world view can actually be criticized by this application. For example, there are many ways to psychologize religious beliefs, (or apprehensions of a world view). Psychologizing proceeds from the recognition that any self-held apprehension is in some way a matter of mental function, and of the properties of mental life. Belief expresses an intention; as does analysis, interpretation, perception, apprehension. In the psychologically-minded view, religious and spiritual experience, understanding is mental, cognitive, an aspect of 'psyche/eros,' etc..


Different types of beliefs and practices appeal to different people for a variety of complex reasons.

In light of this, no matter what the content of religious or spiritual belief specifically is, is about, the critical framework of psychology, (and 'psychology' here captures all the diverse critical applicable frameworks,) is concerned with, among many concerns, what purposes does the individual's world view serve.


This complexity is not "religion" specific.

The 'researcher' can divide persons into two categories: one, those who are able to subject their world views to critical analysis re-cognition, re-apprehension, and, two, those who cannot.

But, obviously, this latter category of persons nevertheless may be subjected to this by the outside researcher! Why? Because there is no way to make the case that a given world view is immunized from the ontological actuality: it is necessarily at least partly produced as a matter of mental phenomena. Just as obviously, a world view is a phenomena able to be scrutinized from many disciplinary frameworks.


Some people have an understanding of their belief system that goes beyond emotional response.

Religions have developed strategies and tactics enabled for other purposes, but serving often the purpose today, to insulate them from scrutiny. A 'popular one' is the appeal to absolute, concrete, a priori "truth". From which the religionist picks and chooses! The researcher subjects both the truth claim and the psychological process of choosing (from one, but not another,) to investigation.


(Here's where my questionable understanding really comes into play because I completely reject the premise that "religions" have developed strategies and tactics, so the following is my interpretation of what was written).

Some religious disciplines prefer unquestioning belief even though each sect may have its own understanding of the overall belief system. For example, the Pope is different in his beliefs from Billy Graham although they are both Christians.

***

One of the objectives of building community intelligence is to implement frameworks and tools which cause self-criticism. In a sense, it comes down to that. The ramification of practiced self-criticism poses further results; mentioned previously were re-cognition (to think it over again,) and re-apprehension, (to understand differently,) etc.


Part of community building is to better understand ourselves and our beliefs.

The concept of religious tolerance is both simple, and once moved into a critical spheres of inquiry, complex and sophisticated.


If I truly understand what my beliefs mean to me, I can accept that others feel as deeply as I do, even if our beliefs are in opposition.
Last edited by dl meckes on Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Stan Austin
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Postby Stan Austin » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:40 pm

DL--- If you could sell that rendering system to Jenny Craig you'd be a millionaire!
:lol:
Stan


Ellen Malonis
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Postby Ellen Malonis » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:13 pm

Jeff Endress wrote: I also wonder where is the input from our city's(strong) religious leadership.


Dear Jeff,

FYI - Pastor Mike Bartolone of Lakewood Foursquare Church was head of the Lakewood Ministerial Association for a number of years. He organized some of the City Prayer Breakfasts, lives here, and has a heart for the people of this city.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "strong". Many of the older mainline denominations are experiencing a decline in membership. The latest LO article about Trinity Lutheran Pastor Paula Maeder Connor makes that point.

Steve - My brain is getting a good workout these days, although DL's interpretation was helpful! You've made the excellent point that matters of religion, faith, worldview, philosophies, psychologies, etc. are very complex. They can be difficult to communicate clearly and discuss intelligently. I'm not really a big fan of labeling or putting people in categories. I may fall into that habit myself, but I don't like to resort to it. It's too easy to be dismissive.

Ken - I would like to respond to your post with the passages from Richard Grossinger's manuscript at some point, but I don't have a huge amount of time to devote to such a task. Suffice it to say, he makes some very broad generalizations about evangelical Christians which I think are way off track. If my experience with the organism that is the worldwide "Body of Christ" has taught me anything, it is that it is a wonderfully loving, gifted, giving, self-sacrificing body with many different parts, and variety that can't be easily labeled and dismissed. Christ is the head, and there has been no decapitation. If any group that claims to be Christian does not have Christ as the head then they are just tares amoung wheat. I don't even recognize what Grossinger describes as the "current evangelical agendas". What he describes are fallen human agendas. This entire passage may resonate with your understanding as you say, but it is dissonant with mine.


Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm

DL summarizes.

When we talk about religion, there are a lot of different factors to consider, because it's a complex issue. Spirituality is very personal and individual. Our individual beliefs cause us to seek others with similar beliefs. This reinforces our beliefs. Different types of beliefs and practices appeal to different people for a variety of complex reasons. This complexity is not "religion" specific. Some people have an understanding of their belief system that goes beyond emotional response.


A. DL

Some religious disciplines prefer unquestioning belief even though each sect may have its own understanding of the overall belief system.


A religious sect, by definition, has its own understanding. 'Unquestioning belief' is absolute belief in particulars chosen from a wider range of possible particulars. This always makes for glaring logical contradictions in light of those other particulars.

Ha, ha, try to summarize that!

***

Stan, do you have any idea how many calories it takes to blow this up to its proper weightiness? You've got it backwards, I'm the one burning the fat. If I were concise, I'd be the size of Houston.

***

DL.

I completely reject the premise that "religions" have developed strategies and tactics


Burning heretics at the stake isn't a tactic? Keeping initiates up for days isn't a tactic? Peeling off the young, the shamed, the addict, the scapegoat isn't a tactic? In the scope of primitive religions there are so many 'allowing you in to the group' tactics that I can only close my eyes and conjure up pictures from old National Geographics. Forced conversion at the point of a sword isn't a tactic? The Catholic Mass?

What is controversial about proselytizing in the skateboard park is the tactic more than the content; (apparently).

A religion is a strategic implementation in, or evoked by, a social environment.

Now, DL, I'm thinking I probably didn't understand what you meant.

If I truly understand what my beliefs mean to me, I can accept that others feel as deeply as I do, even if our beliefs are in opposition.

The idea that depth in belief (and in faith, experience, realization, etc.) is not worthy of respect because it is deep but in error is the kernal upon which the question of tactics turns.


dl meckes
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Postby dl meckes » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:44 pm

Stephen Calhoun wrote:A religious sect, by definition, has its own understanding. 'Unquestioning belief' is absolute belief in particulars chosen from a wider range of possible particulars. This always makes for glaring logical contradictions in light of those other particulars.

Ha, ha, try to summarize that!


That was mercifully succinct. (My brane easily explodiates.)

***
Stephen Calhoun wrote:DL.

I completely reject the premise that "religions" have developed strategies and tactics


Burning heretics at the stake isn't a tactic? Keeping initiates up for days isn't a tactic? Peeling off the young, the shamed, the addict, the scapegoat isn't a tactic? In the scope of primitive religions there are so many 'allowing you in to the group' tactics that I can only close my eyes and conjure up pictures from old National Geographics. Forced conversion at the point of a sword isn't a tactic? The Catholic Mass?

What is controversial about proselytizing in the skateboard park is the tactic more than the content; (apparently).

A religion is a strategic implementation in, or evoked by, a social environment.

Now, DL, I'm thinking I probably didn't understand what you meant.


Yes, you misunderstand me (I was equally unclear). Religion = system of beliefs. Belief systems are incapable of action. Framers and adherents are capable of action.

The idea that depth in belief (and in faith, experience, realization, etc.) is not worthy of respect because it is deep but in error is the kernal upon which the question of tactics turns.


I'm not sure I understand that last sentence. Paraphrasing; I strongly disagree with beliefs other than my own, so there may be no common ground or compromise (?).


Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:14 pm

Yup.

Even if we recognize that someone deeply believes what they believe in, if it is nevertheless, to us, an error, there is no common ground because we are right, and, they are wrong.

A common fault line is described by mutually exclusive beliefs; either God exists or God doesn't exist. Both can't be true at the same time; one view is certainly in error.

(Of course both can be true at the same time, but, this third view would surely be objectionable to the God does, God does not, crews.)

***

Depth and co-existent differences are the first things thrown out.

'God, the head zero sum game designer'


Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:33 pm

Whenever I am presented with the following opportunity to do the following experiment, I do it.

Should representatives of Church or Sect show up at my front door offering their swag and good news, I invite them in.

I ask them to make the following bargain: I'll listen to them tell me about their own personal experience of God, if they'll listen to me do the same.

They ALWAYS agree and they NEVER end up listening. It's not that they won't pay attention, they do up to a modest point, but after a few minutes of my recounting the beginning of my crazy trip with God, they begin to fidget and interrupt and ALWAYS they make the attempt to orient the dialogue around their perception/purpose that they're sitting in my living room to help me with 'my' spiritual problem.

Now it is also true that in recounting their own experience, all of ten minutes or so have elapsed and in recounting my own experience it takes five minutes to get from my experience at 13 to my experience at 19.

But, they stop listening just as I begin to get to the really interesting part! Six minutes is too much to ask for.

This makes me wonder if they care about my spiritual experience at all. (And here I am thinking my experience has been sort of deep. Hmmmm...mebbe not.)

Tip-always invite your guests to go first.


Jeff Endress
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Postby Jeff Endress » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:37 am

Ellen:

When I inquired as to the absence of input from Lakewood's "strong" religious leadership, I was puzzled as to why there has been no input from any Civic/Religious leaders (mainline or otherwise) on the topic of providing religious training to youth, in the absence of parental permission or input. I do not view the attendance figures has a barometer of the strngh of leadership (Pastor Paula article). Strong civic connections and leadership is not related to attendance figures at any given church. A strong leader is one whose input on civic matters is sought, whose opinion is valued and whose ideas provide direction. A srong religious leader is no different, with the notable exception that our religious leaders view civic questions from religious underpinnings and based on their religious training.

As you said:

FYI - Pastor Mike Bartolone of Lakewood Foursquare Church was head of the Lakewood Ministerial Association for a number of years. He organized some of the City Prayer Breakfasts, lives here, and has a heart for the people of this city


and yet Pastor Bartolone, (and any other minister, rabbi, priest, Iman, shaman, for that matter) hasn't entered into the discussion on the issue raised here, to wit:
the targeting of youth for purposes of religious education in the absence of parental permission or authority to do so.

And so, I once again query, while we, as the lay citizens grapple with the issue of parental perogatives in the religious upbringing of our children, why have those religious leaders of the comunity (irrespective of their Sunday attendance figures) not provided any input, direction or guidance on the matter of parental perogatives?

Jeff


Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 am

Good question, Jeff.

Hmmm, they're not here on the Observation Deck, although a few FourSquare leaders are here. So: they don't want to answer.

Also: the issue is amplified here but may not have any real traction elsewhere, the stakes aren't then high enough, thus the need to 'influence' hasn't surpassed some threshold.

Or: they are thinking about and devising responses. It's possible the issue of parental perogatives among the parents of the non-converted has only landed on their 'radar screen' in the aftermath of its being raised here.

As I wrote previously, this is the kind of issue where sides go toe-to-toe. There are other reasons to refuse to do so. One is: an unwillingness to admit a screw-up. Etc.

But, the actual answer to your question can't be ascertained at the moment. (My post here is less-than-idle speculation.)


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Jim O'Bryan
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Postby Jim O'Bryan » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:02 am

Stephen Calhoun wrote:
Tip-always invite your guests to go first.


It would seem that this wastes a ton of time.

Jim


Stephen Calhoun
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Postby Stephen Calhoun » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:39 am

10 minutes is no time at all to me, (who can find ways to actually waste it).

My inquiry made to the visitor(s) is in fact sincere. Over a sample of half-a-dozen or so encounters over the years, it's never deviated from the seeming script set by the very first encounter. We never get to the illustrative point where I turn 'em on to Brilliant Corners by Thelonious Monk; Monk being a crucial figure in my own spiritual play.

***

My point, daff as it is, is that over thirty years of encounters with persons who are inspired by various metaphysical, religious, persuasions, the point of the encounter is to share story and insight. I can divide believers into two groups, (again!), those who care to speak and listen, and those who do not.

The impression I get from those who cannot be concerned with the spiritual foundations of the 'case' (head case?!) presented to them, is that they'd just assume jump to the stage where a 'total program' replacement can begin to occur, or become at least possible.

The second question underneath the question about parental perogatives, for me, is:

Is there to be dialogue in the process of proselytizing?

Are we speaking of a dialogue between two spiritually funded persons, or is it simply a matter of one side having the correct program and the other side needing it to be installed?

***

Tip Two-offer your guests cookies.



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