Proselytizing in city parks

[Stephen Calhoun]

Thanks Pastor Joe.

Now we have two at-odds first hand reports with no way to discern their truth or reconcile their differences.

...not an uncommon situation.

You didn't speak to the issue of parental perogatives with respect to the religious education of minor children, but, it is clear enough that this perogative is not a controlling one for you and your associates.

Of course the perogative in its strongest form, ('adult strangers should not impose religious education/experience on someone else's children',) is not settled into a rule or anything like a rule.

[Kenneth Warren]

[Jeff Endress]

Pastor Joe stated

I can understand it when a teenager sees, hears, or experiences something and not fully understands it

Having exposed these children to a message as complex as the ressurection,

I introduced myself to them and asked them how they liked the videos and if they understood them or had any questions

Thus, we have minor children exposed to a complex belief system that the person creating the exposure then explains. All without parental permission, input or oversight.
Pastor Joe's post is demonstrative of what I have said previously:

What I think raises the bar and causes the intellectualizing/politicizing is that underlying belief system that having been "called", behavior which would otherwise be unacceptable is somehow justified (even meritorious). There will be no acknowledgement of crossing the line, no acceptance of restriction

Agreement or disagreement with the message is irrelevant. The only point here is that it is parents' perogative to determine the time, place and manner of discussing religious beliefs with their minor children.
Dr. Calhoun is absolutely on point in observing;

You didn't speak to the issue of parental perogatives with respect to the religious education of minor children, but, it is clear enough that this perogative is not a controlling one for you and your associates

While some may opine that Pastor Joe's (of what church, with what training, from what denomination with a divinity degree from where ?)message provides differentiation, the technique of indoctrinating fragile minds, sans parents, is the same as that used by various cults. Identify maleable youth, separate them from customary support structures, confuse them, offer solutions to the confusion you created and presto-chango you create an unquestioning follower. Hence the concern here. No oversight of message, delivery, orexplanation. And yet a posture that this is Okay, because of the message delivered. Well, it's not Okay.

Jeff

[Jim O'Bryan]

Paster Joe

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

Think about it. think about what it really means.

Free from what? Free from who?

Thank you for entering the discussion.

Also why did you choose Lakewood?

Jim O'Bryan

[Shelly Gould Burgess]

First of all, Danielle Masters is a very spiritual, pious person with great integrity, as anyone who knows her will attest. I would be very surprised that she would behave as Paster Joe accuses:

But when an adult (and I am referring to Danielle Masters) tells what happened at the skate park that Thursday night and totally speaks inacquerately, I feel she must have her own agenda

Second, it's been said before that the main issue here is parental prerogative, and I concur.

Finally, although this is essentially off-topic, Paster Joe says:

My exact words were, "no, God does not hate homosexuals, drunkards or drug users. God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

Shelly Gould Burgess says: "Booooo!"

[Danielle Masters]

I will make this short and simple. Shelly thank you for the kind words. Paster Joe please keep your preaching to adults and minor children only with their parents prior consent. And I have NO ulterior motives, I have no reason to lie and I have no need to defend myself. Anyone that knows me knows I wouldn't lie, its just not in my nature. The only agenda I have is to let my husband, my kids and all the skaters that wish to come to the Lakewood skate park be able to skate in peace. Thank you.

[Jeff Endress]

Danielle

AHA! So, you admit to having AN AGENDA!

The only agenda I have is to let my husband, my kids and all the skaters that wish to come to the Lakewood skate park be able to skate in peace

Now that's out in the open! Wonder what the Ministerial agenda was in this indoctrination in the absence of adults ?! Hmmmm

Jeff

[STOSH BURGESS]

Pastor you should follow in the footsteps of Father Guido Sarducci. You are a funny man. For you to accuse a fellow upstanding citizen of lying and having a personal agenda is clearly a joke. He who came into this city to promote his personal agenda and using minors as his foot soldiers? Seeking out to warp the minds of our unsupervised children? Question: Do you seek youth at soccer games and baseball games? Probably not, because parents are there to let you know you are out of line.

[Jeff Endress]

Stosh:

Guido was truly funny. We could turn him off or change the channel if SNL was offensive. The kid were already in bed. Not so with "Pastor Joe".

I'd still like to know where the Pastor recieved his training and education. I know my brother (BA Religion Trinity, MA Religious studies Duke, Docorate of Divinity TCU) spent ten years in university studies. He works in Christian Education and Outreach at a large Houston Methodist church. He doesn't script encounters with young persons. He opens his doors to those with questions, concerns and spiritual inquiry.
As I (prayerfully) talked with him about the Skate Park incident, he questioned why there was no input from the City's religious leaders. I know the Observer is young, and that although we seek to involve all of interest in Lakewood, I also wonder where is the input from our city's(strong) religious leadership.
Would the Lakewood leadership of the Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Muslims, Druids, Orthodox, Pagans, (did I miss any?) care to put their oar in?

[Kenneth Warren]

[Lynn Rodemann]

it seems as though all of my satin worshiping skate boarding friends all need to start hanging out at the skate park... so they will leave my young cousin who skates there alot... alone..

[Ellen Malonis]

Isn't getting to the truth of the matter more important to you all than just slinging comments and slurs like some gossip column?

Yes, indeed, getting to the truth of the matter is much more important. Thank you so much for posting. I apologize for initially jumping to conclusions (ya know you can get hurt doing that!) about the methods, motivations, and mindset of the outreach group. When I heard later that they were from Lakewood Foursquare Church, I knew we were missing something here and it was important to hear from someone who was a part of the group.

Our purpose was to share God's love, joy, healing and victory with the teens of your area in a nonthreatening, non-judgemental, and especially not a shove-it-in-your-face-and-accept it way. No one ever said skate boarders were evil and going to hell....come on! Five of our youth skateboard and even had their boards on the trip and skated before and after some of the ministry. Nor did I or anyone else say God hated homosexuals and they were going to hell. Neither did I tell a young lady who was still hurting from her fathers death that he was going to hell.

Thank you, also, for explaining that. Like Steve said:

Now we have two at-odds first hand reports with no way to discern their truth or reconcile their differences.

...not an uncommon situation.

There is already something positive coming out of this entire event: This discussion. This was an upsetting event for Danielle and her family, and others at the skatepark. We all like to say we love Lakewood for its diversity. But, in reality there is adversity connected with diversity (Steve, help me out here)

Intelligent living in the city with skateboarders and true believers and everyone in between is all about knowing our motivations and adjusting our behavior to achieve a level of harmony, love and peace.

I believe important questions still need to be answered. I hope you will find the time to answer them.

Ken - you've got a wonderful way with words. "Knowing our motivations and adjusting our behavior" - this is no easy process. What level of harmony, love and peace can we achieve? Not sure. This too is a work in progress.

"Bless those who persecute you: bless and do not curse.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
Be of the same mind toward one another.
Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all. Romans 12:14-18

[Kenneth Warren]

[Stan Austin]

Ellen and Ken--- I will presume to speak for the rest of us by stating that we are all benefitting from the insight you both present in your postings.

The "debate" if it can even be called that is at least in my case causing me to examine many of my preconceptions.

Would that this level could carry over to its place of origin, the skatepark!

Stan Austin

[Kenneth Warren]

Stan:

Thank you for your encouragement.

I had an interesting experience in communication this morning, relevant to our inquiry here.

While walking past the skate park, beside the eastern fence, I observed a young skateboarder, approximately eleven years old, who completed a daring move off a ramp.

I attempted to shout a compliment his way.

From the fence I bellowed at him "WHOOA REALLY NICE......"

The boy looked at me puzzled, tentative, very courteous, almost apologetic.

He said, "What?"

"Hey dude, that move was fantastic. You're really good," I clarified.

He said, "Oh, thanks, I thought you were yelling at me."

I learned a valuable lesson.

Silence is golden.

Youth are tender and sensitive.

Good intentions sometimes miss the mark.

Given all our attention to the skate park recently, I felt compelled to take a risk, to participate in the action, if only by extending a compliment. Of course my risk was different.

I jumped from an interior ramp into a field of psycho-social space to compliment a young person.

Verbal communication as simple as a compliment can be misinterpreted by a young person. Clearly young people are naturally sensitive and tender in their very being.

I believe, therefore, it is only reasonable to acknowledge the complex effects instigated from good intentions.

Parents who live day in and day out with children in tender condition are wholly justified in their sensitivity and impulse toward protection.

At the same time, I learned that unless careful, a compliment from stranger could be misperceived by a child and a disturbing message conveyed to the parent that an old man was yelling at me in the skatepark.

I hope Pastor Joe can appreciate my reflection about the complex occasions that naturally unfold from communication by strangers to young people.

Kenneth Warren