Proselytizing in city parks

[Shelly Gould Burgess]

I also was there that Thursday night at the skate park

Are you an adult, John? If so, why didn't you stop them?

Their mission was to let those who would listen, share the love of God

It was all about sharing the love of God and that is exactly what they did.

I would encourage those of you to search the scriptures to see if that is what they did.

"Sharing" and "letting" are quite different from confronting, forcing, dramatizing, and blasting music. Witnesses, which of these was it? According to everyone who was there except John, I'm drawing the conclusion that it was the latter types of behavior.

As a teacher, there are MANY topics which are clearly off-limits to me when I speak with the kids entrusted to me. Why? As it's been said here before, there are certain topics that belong to the parents, not to other adults.

John, maybe I want to "share" my feelings about some alternative religious perspective that contradicts yours and "let" your kids listen to me when you're not around. Is that ok with you? (Speaking hypothetically, of course.)

[STOSH BURGESS]

I think I have a right to go about my business whether it’s skateboarding or taking my daughter to kid’s cove, without being harassed. I find it bogus that some of you feel it is alright to harass people (or as some of you call it preach the word of god). I think we need to let people find there own path in life. Lakewood is one place that if you feel the need for Jesus you will have no problems finding a place to inquire more about his where a bouts. I find it sick that these people are preying on our youth. As you can see this is a sensitive issue for me. I understand that most Christians are not out there trying to convince all, that the lord is the only way. For this group, I have the greatest respect. Understanding the way you live your life works for you and that it may not be the right path for others is the most humble and respectful characteristic we should all try to attain.

[Stephen Calhoun]

Once you get to the great challenges of human purpose and our place in the greater scheme, the content of what one might believe in, or the way of relating our personal experience to ultimate concerns can become one of the paramount commitments of life.

How to get there? Who gets to help? On and on as mortal coil meets up with...whatever. Heck, I was 13 when awe knocked me out of the world. I'm a believer without the quotable portfolio and, even if this is very serious to me personally, I hope the fool may get to places the most pious Saint cannot access.

And, should you tell me, 'I'm going to hell', then I will tell you,

"Good, at least that part is settled!"

But, I'm a grown-up and I've got decades invested in the shocking project.

***

Meanwhile, the issue on the table is: is there a church in Lakewood actively trying to engage unconverted youths with grown-ups advising and directing the missionary efforts of their youthful agents?

Now we go toe-to-toe with this reality if it is true. (It may not be.) Why? Well, at the very least it's a helluva newspaper story in the making.

[Danielle Masters]

When I orginally posted this story I had no idea how much feedback I would receive. I am glad that this has got us all talking, but now I know why my mother always told me to never discuss religion or politics. As for that Thursday night I want to make it clear that I can only go by what I saw and heard and by what I was told by my children and the other kids there. I was not out in the park, nor was I on the bleachers where I normally sit to watch my husband and kids. I was standing by the entrance, talking with another concerned parent. We did ask the group if they had a permit to be there and we were told they didn't need one. So let me make it clear I was not skating with my kids, my husband was, he avoided them as did most of the adults there. He said most of the kids tried to avoid them, but some didn't. All I know is that my kids are good kids, they would NOT lie about what was said to them. I have come to know a lot of the kids that skate there on a daily basis and I don't think they would lie to me about this either. They have no reason to lie about it. As for the "preaching" that occured that night it was mostly done by the few adults in the group, with the kids watching on. So that is my account of that night. I can tell you I have no reason to lie. I was upset and disturbed that night, and my kids still say everyday when we go to the park "I hope those people aren't there".

I think I have a right to go about my business whether it’s skateboarding or taking my daughter to kid’s cove, without being harassed. I find it bogus that some of you feel it is alright to harass people (or as some of you call it preach the word of god). I think we need to let people find there own path in life.

John, maybe I want to "share" my feelings about some alternative religious perspective that contradicts yours and "let" your kids listen to me when you're not around. Is that ok with you? (Speaking hypothetically, of course.)

Well said Shelly and Stosh, that is exactly how I feel. I just want to be free to raise my children with my belief system and other people to be free to raise their children with their belief system. If someone asks me about my religion then I'll answer their questions, I would never go into a public place and basically force people to listen to my beliefs. I say "basically" force because when you take over the only legal place to skateboard in a town and start preaching, you aren't really giving people their freedom. They are there to skate, which is what the facility is for, and you are there "preaching", which isn't what the facility is for. If my family doesn't want to listen to you, we have to leave. Thats not right, we are using the park for its intended purpose, you are not. I just want us as citizens of this community to have respect for the other members of our community. To have a successful community we need to try and be polite and kind to each other. I understand they wanted to get a message out, but perhaps they should rethink their methods.

I am just grateful I haven't had to experience this again. I have enjoyed the last week being able to watch my family skate in peace.

[Ellen Malonis]

As for that Thursday night I want to make it clear that I can only go by what I saw and heard and by what I was told by my children and the other kids there. I was not out in the park, nor was I on the bleachers where I normally sit to watch my husband and kids...All I know is that my kids are good kids, they would NOT lie about what was said to them.

Thank you, Danielle, for clarifying. This was obviously very upsetting to you and your family. Were there confrontations or arguments that erupted as a result of the church outreach? That probably added stress to an already uncomfortable situation for you.

And please know that I say this with as much grace as I can emote in an online format: No one is implying that you or your children are lying. I have 5 children, and I know, just in our own little family "community" how misunderstandings and miscommuication can happen. I've had instances when I said something to my kids, and they heard something completely different. And I'm not saying this is indeed what happened with your family. Your account said the group preached that skateboarding was evil, John said they did not. So, I'm trying to understand what happened.

I'm also wondering, were there skaters and families at the park who had a positive encounter with the church group who would be willing to share their eye (and ear) witness accounts? I understand from this thread that skaters are a diverse bunch, much like Evangelical Christians. Were the outreach events received negatively by all skate park users? Were some of the kids from the church youth group actually there to skate, too?

The truth is out there...

[Vince Frantz]

Were the outreach events received negatively by all skate park users? Were some of the kids from the church youth group actually there to skate, too?

The problem I have is that these are less "outreach" and more like "confrontations". "Confrontations" are received negatively by anyone confronted! No one would complain if there was a skater there to talk to kids. But this is guerilla style and that is to be condemned.

I had a long conversation with a youth pastor in Massillon last night at their skatepark committee meeting. I had mentioned the incident at lakewood as just one of a range of things that were not skateboard related at the park.

He came up to me after the meeting and asked more about it. He had the same look on his face that I get when confronted by some story of a "skateboarder" harassing some pedestrian. Here we go again with more people giving all of us a bad name. He was a skater for most of his life. He worked at a skateshop for 6 years through college. He is now a well respected youth pastor and community volunteer. His chief complaint was not the assertion that skateboarding is a sin or that people were at the park doing outreach. His complaint was the same as mine - that some people would use this "drive-by" proselytizing as an excerise in fulfilling their duties as a Christian. Why is this not clear to everyone in this thread? John, why do you paint this as "outreach" when no one even knew the kid's names? It is the cheapest form of "outreach" I have ever seen.

Scott (the youth pastor) was saddened as someone who has taken the path of outreach in his life. Reaching people - kids, adults, skaters, politicians, or even other Christians - comes through a personal relationship. The relationships you build with a bullhorn and a pamphlet are confrontations and can hardly be considered outreach.

[Jeff Endress]

I know I'm a little late to the discussion.....so I was on vacation....

I am struck by how much of what is being discussed on the Observation Deck boils down to conflicting personal freedoms. We have the resaurant/bar discussion centered around freedom to smoke v. freedom to breathe clean air. Then there's the property issue of being free to deal with your own property as you see fit vs. the impact such actions may have on others. Then there's the issue of being free to express oneself vs. dress code restriction. On this thread we have the discussion of freedom to practice and advocate religion vs. the right to be left in peace. There are others, but those seem to be some of the main ones.

In my view, these conflicts tend to emerge when one side (or the other) is insensitive to the impacts on the other, has a black or white mentality. When you fail to recognise that some of your actions (even if entirely legal) have a negative impact on others, you necessarily create an adversarial conflict, rather then an atmosphere for reflection, mediation and discussion. In public places, such as the skate park, if the actions of others offend you, your only option is to retreat from a place where you have a right to be (unlike your home, where you can shut the door in the face of the unwanted solicitor). To place persons in a position where they either have to abandon their rightful activity or be subjected to messagages they find inappropriate, if not illegal, ceretainly raises the bar on insensitivity to new heights.

You want to demonstrate your religious beliefs in a loving God? If that be your calling, we have the Chat Room, there are hunger centers (St. Herman's) there's the Christian Service Center. Set up a teen coffee house, sponser a revival, put on a gospel concert, hand out bibles, build houses in Nigeria, take in a homeless person, adopt a "needs" child,work on a fresh water project on an Indian Reservation....Walk the walk and by your example, lead others in your path.

However, if you feel it appropriate to impinge on my freedoms and force beliefs upon our most vulnerable (our kids) with a side-show, this is little different from the techniques of cults. While you may call it "outreach" or ministering, it seems more to me like a "Christian Taliban".

Jeff

[Vince Frantz]

The idea of public space and what should be condoned is difficult to define. But in this case, the theatrical display of transformation did not result in a bunch of posts on a website or a backlash from skaters. The people that witnessed it had a range of opinions and, like I said in an earlier post, we've seen all kinds of public performances at the places we skate. No one complained or talked about the theatrics. But after the same group came inside the park to make directed and disruptive overtures to the skaters, it crossed a line. It was only then that the first passive theatrical event was recounted to me and only as background.

In other words, all the loud music and theatrics is fine as long as you don't cross the line of interupting the activity that brings people to the public space in the first place. This is so interesting because for the last 18 years of my life I have been using public spaces to skate and about 30% of the time just being there on a board is considered "offensive" to other people that feel I don't have the right to be there. I am not trying to get them to stop eating or sitting or even to try my board. But they want to eat their food or sit on their bench and NOT see anything but pidgeons. If someone asked me to leave, I would leave. But some people would stand and make the argument that we're part of this public also and we're not doing anything to stop you from being here so why complain? Noisy wheels? Then lets get all officially "annoying" sounds legislated against.

Walk the walk and by your example, lead others in your path.

But that takes actual dedication!

[STOSH BURGESS]

[Stan Austin]

Stosh---Let me jump back in here for a second. I think that the skaters were targeted by these kids because, like it or not,skating has an image of rebellion that stick ball doesn't. And, there's nothing that is more revolting to these people than any hint of non conformity or free thinking.

(As I sit and patiently wait for a response to that one)

But after having read Jeff Endress' post which did a good job of describing boundary lines I think that some technique of dealing with the immediate problem has to be devised.

For instance, Vince, how did you handle the BMXers who wanted to use the park? Is this something that could be used?

I think that maybe we are over intellectuallizing and politicizing a problem that is simply bad behaviour.

Stan (Stach)

[Vince Frantz]

For instance, Vince, how did you handle the BMXers who wanted to use the park? Is this something that could be used?

Exactly.. the only grounds for not having bikes there was that it interupts the designated usage. It - in essence - prevents skateboarders from skating the skateboard park with the resulting mixture being physical harm. I couldn't take my board down the middle of a tennis court game. But taking a bike onto a small, over-crowded skatepark is like biking through a full court basketball game. Sure most of the time there will be no collision. But believe it or not, biking is not the same "game" as skateboarding. Skaters know how to skate with many other skaters because we all share the same motivations and limitations. Overcoming those limitations (getting skills) also breeds a waryness of what can happen (you had to learn somehow) so you look out for those with less skill because you know what they are or aren't capable of. Watching the park you will see skaters watching out for skaters and doing everything to avoid collision.

Throw in a biker and the whole system is thrown off.

Even parents who come on the course to follow their kid around is in more danger of hurting us or themselves than the kid trying to ride. Because they are not focused on themselves but on their child - they wander right in front of people. So we are more wary of non-skaters than young kid skaters. You KNOW what the young kid skater is gonna do. A person on a bike or just wlking can stop and change direction on a dime and you know that they don't know what is going on.

[Jeff Endress]

[Stan Austin]

Folks-- Seems like a 7th inning stretch. So I'll just mention my Dad's favorite Mark Twain quote---------- Twain, when asked where he'd like to end up when the end finally came heaven or hell, replied----

heaven for the weather, hell for the company!

Stan

[Shelly Gould Burgess]

I get the feeling that there are those who've been posting on this thread who want to believe that these outreachers/guerrillas were behaving piously, and they're looking for reasons to convince themselves that the behavior was ok. There are others, like myself, who under no circumstances feel it is appropriate for one stranger to approach another stranger and begin talking about personal faith issues without being invited to do so. Are any of us going to convince the other group? Probably not. I think Jeff has hit the nail on the head:

What I think raises the bar and causes the intellectualizing/politicizing is that underlying belief system that having been "called", behavior which would otherwise be unacceptable is somehow justified (even meritorious).

So...at the risk of seriously ticking off people, how is this different from jihad? One way is that with a jihad, people tend toward serious violence. The violence is lesser here, yet I would still consider it violence against the psyche of the kids. When someone rings my doorbell and tries to tell me that my personal faith is wrong, that's aggression. It's all, to greater or lesser degrees, the same, and I think the word that sums it up is fanaticism. One who is not a religious fanatic doesn't confront or attack strangers (physically or psychologically.) One who is secure in her/his faith leaves the door open for others to walk through if they so choose to enter into a conversation.

[Pastor Joe Raddish]

John 8:32 says, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." I can understand it when a teenager sees, hears, or experiences something and not fully understands it and therefore misquotes what really happened. But when an adult (and I am referring to Danielle Masters) tells what happened at the skate park that Thursday night and totally speaks inacquerately, I feel she must have her own agenda, and by the response you all have given her she achieved it! I am so sorry that her careless witness to what really did occur has created an atmosphere of anger, confusion, and irresponsible comments from other adults without researching whether she was speaking the truth or not. Isn't getting to the truth of the matter more important to you all than just slinging comments and slurs like some gossip column? So after I found out on 7/27/05 that this circus-type repore was going on I felt a responsiballity to God and the people of the Cleveland and Lakewood areas to shed some much needed light on this distorted subject. I was there that Thurday. I was the Pastor/ Evengelist that was heading the missions trip that included youth from WV and Lakewood. Our team consisted of 23 youth and 4 adults. Our ministry is called Generation Next Outreach which is taken from Judges 2:10 "...and there arose another generation after them which knew not the Lord nor yet the works He had done for Israel." Our purpose was to share God's love, joy, healing and victory with the teens of your area in a nonthreatening, non-judgemental, and especially not a shove-it-in-your-face-and-accept it way. We chose to do human videos that act out the truths of God's word and then go into the crowd and talk about what the videos mean and share the gospel with those who had an interest to talk with us. If someone said, "sorry, not interested" or "I don't need your Jesus" we simply respected their opinions and went to someone else who wanted to talk. It was no different that Thursday night. We set up and did our human videos and many at the park watched them from a distance. After we were finished three other adults and I split up and entered the park and walked around the sides. We did not want to interfere with everyone skating, so we waited for them to stop and then we talked with them. I was in charge of the group at the bleechers. As I approached the kids, there were about 8 or 9 teens plus 1 adult woman reading a book. I did not know nor now know if it was Danielle Masters. I introduced myself to them and asked them how they liked the videos and if they understood them or had any questions. I told them we were in their area for the week on a missions trip witnessing for the Lord. I told them we were hitting a lot of the parks in the Cleveland and Lakewood areas and really enjoyed the different responses we recieved. We didn't pick the skate park because we hated skateboarding and the people who do it. On the contrary. I enjoy watching those who are skilled and know how to skateboard. Sorry to say I can't even stand on one of those things. But I noticed that there were some young people there who were quite good. No one ever said skate boarders were evil and going to hell....come on! Five of our youth skateboard and even had their boards on the trip and skated before and after some of the ministry. Nor did I or anyone else say God hated homosexuals and they were going to hell. Neither did I tell a young lady who was still hurting from her fathers death that he was going to hell. No one knows someone elses heart but them and God. God did not call us to judge anyone but to share the story of His Son Jesus life, death, and resurrection and how it can impact and bring about a good and powerful change in their lives. We talked about heaven, hell, sin, and the power of Jesus' shed blood to forgive sin and give everyone a fresh new start. I told the young people there that we all were in the same boat, all sinners lost without Jesus, but no matter what you've done once you ask Jesus into your life and He removes the sin, God gives us a fresh start (II Corinthians 5:17). My exact words were, "no, God does not hate homosexuals, drunkards or drug users. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. That is why Jesus came and died ... to destroy sin and the pain it brings to our lives now and the eternal consequences that come when we die. John 3:16&17 says, "For God so loved the world"...that includes everyone ..."that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life." Romans 5:8 says, "God commendeth his love towards us (everyone) in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Romans 3:10 and 3:23 says that we are all guilty of sin...therfore we all need Jesus to break the hold that sin has on us. As I shared the simple, true message of love the group that I witnessed to stayed until the park was closed. I thanked the small group for allowing me to talk with them and we loaded our equipment and left quietly. I believe that many will be affected in a positive way by the ministry that God called us to do in Cleveland and Lakewood areas. The Church is called to go out to those who are not in Church, not just ring a bell and expect them to come to us. There isn't one place that if God should lead us to go that we could not share the gospel in a spirit of love (Matthew 28:18-20). My prayers are that the Lord will bless the people of Ohio and pour out His awesome power and presence on each and everyone of them. Cleveland and Lakewood are great cities and we enjoyed the people we encountered there on our missions trip. If you have any futhure comments please feel free to send them to me. Thank you and God bless.