Star Chamber For The Arts - Your Tax Dollars At Work

Forum strictly about development, urban planning, community programs ideas, and discussions about cities around the world and what they are doing right.

Moderator: Jim DeVito

Bill Call
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:10 pm

f

Postby Bill Call » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:50 am

michael gill wrote:Bill:
c. If the public is going to fund the program why shouldn't the public determine how the money is spent? If its all about public support of the arts why not let the public decide?

I'd like to vote on how my tax dollars are spent, too.


When I say the public should decide I mean the public should decide in the open market place by choosing where and when to spend their entertainment dollars.

A close look at the spending patterns makes a couple of things clear:

1. $180 million or more will be spent downtown and at University Circle for building construction, repair and maintenance.

2. The small balance that is left will be doled out in small amounts to various neighborhood groups for walking around money.

I have no faith at all that people selected and controlled by the County Commissioners will make the right choices. But like I said, I'm on the losing side of this argument.

Cuyahoga County has reached the point where so many people are dependent on the corruption machine that a substantial number of voters view corruption as a normal business practice and view any attempts to control that corruption as derailing the gravy train. In that environment the duty of a citizen is to get his community a bigger piece of the action.

County government is a finely tuned criminal enterprise. When your guy is in he steals from me. When my guy is in he steals from you. It's only fair.


dl meckes
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: Lakewood

Re: f

Postby dl meckes » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:44 am

Bill Call wrote:
When I say the public should decide I mean the public should decide in the open market place by choosing where and when to spend their entertainment dollars.


So Apollo's Fire shouldn't be subsidized because it, for instance, isn't as popular as the Jonas Brothers?


“One of they key problems today is that politics is such a disgrace. Good people don’t go into government.”- 45
Bill Call
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:10 pm

Re: f

Postby Bill Call » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:10 am

dl meckes wrote:So Apollo's Fire shouldn't be subsidized because it, for instance, isn't as popular as the Jonas Brothers?


http://www.apollosfire.org/support/friends.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Brothers

I had a friend who had a baroque music group that went belly up. There weren’t enough people willing to pay to listen. I have another who is an excellent piano player. He wanted to play for a living but the demand just wasn’t there. Should everyone who wants a career in music or art receive a subsidy or just the politically well connected?

Of course it’s hard to make an argument against that kind of subsidy in a town that will spend a billion dollars to subsidize the salaries of millionaire ball players and their billionaire owners.


Rhonda loje
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:08 pm

Postby Rhonda loje » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:50 am

Mr. Call,

Do you even know how the process of selection for this money works?

I think before you criticize any process of selection...I think you should know what you are talking about. Can you tell me how you "think" this process of selection happened.

I would love to know you thoughts.

Rhonda Loje


michael gill
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:28 am
Location: lakewood

Postby michael gill » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:02 am

Bill: when you wrote:

c. If the public is going to fund the program why shouldn't the public determine how the money is spent? If its all about public support of the arts why not let the public decide?

I thought that was what you meant. THe first halves of both of those sentences imply the existence of public funding in the conventional sense. Neither of them imply or in any way allude to making choices with their ticket-buying dollars.

Do you want to talk about what the meaning of "is" is?

And if you want to let the ticket-buying market be the decider of what organizations live or die, bear in mind that none of the organizations in this discussion, from the Cleveland Orchestra to the Beck Center to Apollo's Fire can continue supplying their product on ticket revenue alone. You could sell every single ticket for every single production at Beck Center and still not cover the cost of the service.

And how exactly does this relate to county corruption?

Will you meet me to talk about this?


Danielle Masters
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Lakewood, OH

Postby Danielle Masters » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:25 pm

I think something that people often forget about the arts is that there are positive aspects of them that are not necessarily tangible. I noticed in the list of recipients that there are organizations that help bring art to children. Bringing art and music into the lives of children should be one of our top priorities because it does help them academically and socially. It pains me to see people that don't understand the importance of art and music to our society.


Bill Call
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:10 pm

t

Postby Bill Call » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:26 pm

Rhonda loje wrote:Mr. Call,
Do you even know how the process of selection for this money works?
Rhonda Loje


Here is a link to the grant guidelines:
http://www.cacgrants.org/downloads/2008 ... elines.pdf

If you read through the eight pages you run across qualifying factors like:
Addresses community needâ€
Last edited by Bill Call on Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Rhonda loje
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:08 pm

Postby Rhonda loje » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:48 pm

Like I said before....If you don't apply...you will not be considered. A case in point....The Lakewood Arts Festival.....


michael gill
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:28 am
Location: lakewood

Postby michael gill » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:48 pm

I really don't understand why you posted those links, Bill.

The first one has Cathy Boyle asking to roll over some unused comp time, bergholz asking that criteria be made available online, and similar minutia.

The second is simply a list of who got money, which --surprise surprise--shows most going to Playhosue Square, Clevel Orch, Playhouse, and CMA, and other orgs, which mostly are on the east side.

They don't hint anything like the corruption you describe. What would be corrupt is if the money DIDN't reflect that geographic distribution. By any measure--tickets sold, people employed, economic impact, artistic professionalism, quantity of programming, outreach in schools, etc etc--those organizations are the most significant in the county. True corruption would be if they DIDN'T get the lion's share of funding.

Are you advocating somekind of geographically based affirmative action, to build significant arts infrastructure on the west side? (which would be redundant and truly wasteful)? Is that what you're getting at?

You don't need to post links for me. I'm not spouting from the top of my head as an outsider clicking internet links. I attend those meetings.

I'm getting ready for and then going on vacation. I'll meet you at sullivans in a couple of weeks. In the mean time, I look forward to hearing about your quota system (opr whatever it is) of dumping disproportionate public money to create redundant arts infrastructure on the West Side. Also I'm looking for a good definition of "walking around money."


John Guscott
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:25 am
Location: Lakewood OH

Postby John Guscott » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 am

Yes, it is true that the library was a recipient of CAC funds. The grant request was developed by Andrew Harant, manager of Children's and Youth Services, and myself.

The CAC funds will be used to pay for cultural and educational programs offered to children and adults during July 1, 2008 and June 30, 2009. All programs are open to all ages and are free to attend.

Most of our performers and presenters live in Lakewood and Cuyahoga County, so the money is going back into the community.

Watch your mailbox in the next few weeks for our Fall-Winter program and events guide. Most of the programs in that booklet are partially funded by the CAC Grant, as well as the Friends of the Lakewood Public Library.


User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 13376
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:53 am

Bill/Michael

If scotch is allowed I would love to be at a conversation with both of you but not only about this art stuff. I can play both sides against the middle in this one.

Bill has every right to scream over this. In a country/city with diminishing resources, where are "art dollars" better spent?

If I read Mr. Call correctly, he has no problem funding the arts and I know the Call family supports the arts. There name is on most donor lists, and he walks the grandson to Band2Gether every Friday. His problem is how it is chosen, why, and where to spend the money.

Legitimate questions, is it a star chamber, and Michael, DL others in this discussion we know exactly what he means. A group meeting in secret to buy subsidize art, and like many of these programs fund relatives and friends. Or they work with the genius of Bob Ney.

So do we keep chamber quartets alive at a possible cost of $400,000 to use Bill's numbers. Or do we fund education in music, and teach children about chamber music, while using money to bring in a couple shows for them and others to see?

I think money is better spent on education and teaching arts to the young, and building their appreciation and dedication, then feed in some of the free market people who will buy the art and music they like.


FWIW


.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
William Fraunfelder III
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:18 pm
Location: West Clifton
Contact:

Postby William Fraunfelder III » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:27 am

Jim,

I agree with you on this, as would, I think, most other Lakewood taxpayers. Whereas it applies to educational priorities, thanks to Mr. Bush, the NCLB act, and misguided State education administrators, we have only 9 weeks (1/4 yr.) of Art instruction per elementary student in this town; the remainder of the non-tested "slice" of the school-year is used for Gym and Music.

Now, at the risk of sounding like someone who could care less about some subjective interpretation comparing American kids' test scores to Greeks, Japanese, and Icelanders, when do the kids in this town get to be kids? Only during the summer months, when over-taxed parents, well-meaning volunteers, and various "pay-to-paint" programs try to make-up for the dearth of artistic opportunities during the school-year, or should it be left to the free-market to fill the "accepted" void left by the state-mandated, proficiency-targeted curriculum?

To quote pop culture's best example of this: "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." Innovation and intellectual curiosity are inspired by creativity. American medicine innovates. American science innovates. Oh, by the way, who has led the world in developing intellectual property over the last 150 years? All of that occurred without educational self-aggrandisment and putting the cart before the horse.


Brian Pedaci
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:17 am

Postby Brian Pedaci » Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:38 am

Jim,

Interesting points, but it must be repeated that the panel simply scores the grant applications as they come in. If nobody submitted a project for music education that was denied by the panel, then you've set up a false choice in your post.


User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 13376
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:58 pm

Brian Pedaci wrote:Jim,

Interesting points, but it must be repeated that the panel simply scores the grant applications as they come in. If nobody submitted a project for music education that was denied by the panel, then you've set up a false choice in your post.



Brian



My point was, it seems far wiser to educate children in the arts and hope they build a sense of awareness, community and artistic values. Then to pay for the picture of Jesus in elephant dung.(which actually never got a penny of tax dollars)

But it is merely my opinion.


.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama

Return to “Urban Dynamics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests